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Numerology and the Meanings of Numbers in Hoodoo

Oran

Numerology and the Meanings of Numbers in Hoodoo

Unread post by Oran » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:29 am

Hi there,

This message is somewhat directed to Cat, as my question references material from herb-magic.com, but I'd certainly welcome anyone's feedback. :D

First, what I'm referencing is from http://herb-magic.com/broom-straw.html

For Protection while Sleeping, lay nine BROOM STRAWS under your pillow to prevent evil dreams.


From what I've read so far I haven't noticed much numerical significance in Hoodoo, such as in relation to quantity (like in the above quote), or repetition, etc.
:?: What I'd like to know is, if there is any sort of a numerological reference of sorts we can turn to for determining significance of particular numbers in folk-magic, or is it generally just passed down that way and we're not quite sure why a particular quantity of something, for example, is used?

Hopefully that made sense! ^_^

Lukianos

Re: Numbers in Hoodoo

Unread post by Lukianos » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:53 am

Hi Oran,

Oran wrote:From what I've read so far I haven't noticed much numerical significance in Hoodoo, such as in relation to quantity (like in the above quote), or repetition, etc.
:?: What I'd like to know is, if there is any sort of a numerological reference of sorts we can turn to for determining significance of particular numbers in folk-magic, or is it generally just passed down that way and we're not quite sure why a particular quantity of something, for example, is used?


Actually, there are several specific numbers that come up repeatedly in hoodoo: the numbers 3 (3 highest names, etc.), 5 (five-spot pattern most notably), 7 (as in lucky 7), 9 (as in the example you quoted, often showing up in spells of protection and mastery, but also because it is 3 times 3), and 13 (so bad its good, often seen in uncrossing work and what Miss cat refers to as "reverse bad luck" types of spells). Less often, the numbers 2 (as in pairs of lodestones or other objects for love work) and 4 show up. When these numbers are mentioned in spells, they are not arbitrary. Nor are all numbers mentioned equally (some never show up at all, except maybe as a reference to a specific Psalm, and others when they are mentioned may give a clue as to the origin of the spell itself--6 or 8 for example are much more common in Pow-Wow / brauche, and 4 is much more significant in many Native American traditions).

And then there is the category of dream books (also known as policy or numbers books), which correlate dream images with numbers for the purpose of gambling:
http://www.luckymojo.com/auntsallys.html

Oran

Re: Numbers in Hoodoo

Unread post by Oran » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:52 am

Thank you very much for the info!
Interestingly, several of your examples are things I have read but didn't really
acknowledge as being numerically significant, which they obviously are.
I think I'll be much more conscious of this now. ^_^

Literarylioness

Re: Numbers in Hoodoo

Unread post by Literarylioness » Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:52 pm

Well, the numbers I always come across in Hoodoo are 3, 7, and 13. I occasionally will get 9 and 4, but not as much.

3 is for the the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy ghost (spirit).

4 is a big number in Hoodoo due to its importance to Native Americans.

5 is the well-known 5-spot or quincunx pattern. When tricks are laid, it is common to array the elements in a 5-spot or X-patten with the ends and center of the X being dotted.

7 is important because God created the world in seven days.

9 is the number of Man (Acts:17:31).

13 is quite interesting and my favorite. in Judaism and Christianity, 13 is the number of Love (Deuteronomy 6.4). inthe Christian New Testament, there were 12 disciples and adding Jesus makes 13. Corinthians 13 in the New Testament is on love. Additionally, as I was taught in my Catholic upbringing, 13 is when the "dead shall rise," there are 13 acts of Mercy. In secular terms, the baker's dozen is also 13, and of course 13 is "so bad it is lucky." Interestingly enough, 13 has become a number to represent jinx reversing and jinx removing.

Mary

rjwcim

Numerology and the Meanings of Numbers in Hoodoo

Unread post by rjwcim » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:47 pm

Hello all,

I have a question about something, I know that in hoodoo odd numbers are preferred can anyone tell me the meaning behind the use of odd numbers? like in a mojo most ingredients are an odd amount and with name paper you write the names an odd number of times. I even read somewhere a while ago that the Black Man's number was three.

I don't want to bother anyone with silly questions. I love spell casting (which i'm getting the hang of) but I also like theories behind stuff too. I read miss cats online book mainly for that purpose lol. And I can't really find very much info on hoodoo other than Lucky mojo (either that or my google skills sucks). I do have to say though since I started this path I have been very successful with using spells.

But I also like to know the meanings behind a lot of the stuff in hoodoo as well. I did get a lot of info from miss cats book online, thank you so much for that too miss cat and please let us know when you add more links lol. Speaking of which I'm going to go through some of the book again just to see If maybe I had missed something on odd numbers.

Take care
Ra'Shay :)

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Re: Odd Numbers

Unread post by Miss Bri » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:51 pm

rjwcim,

Odd numbers are not "preferred" in hoodoo any dogmatic way. Some people like them. Experienced workers have observed that many things will be done with odd number,s but only in recent years has that come to be translated as almost a rule of sorts, which, as far as I know, it never was and still never is.

And it is not odd numbers generally, there are specific odd numbers that get used a lot. 3 and 7 both have religious significance in Christianity and Judaism. 13, like the black cat, is so bad it becomes good. But 11 for instance has no special significance. 9 is traditionally regarded as a magical number.

Hope that helps,
Bri
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rjwcim

Re: Odd Numbers

Unread post by rjwcim » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:39 pm

Thanks Bri =)

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Re: Odd Numbers

Unread post by Chagrinedgirl » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:10 pm

I wonder if it has something to do with the math? 3,7,11,13 are all prime numbers, and 9 is 3 squared.
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Re: Odd Numbers

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:34 am

Folks,

What it comes down to is that some people count ingredients and some people do not. Both are operating within the tradition of African American folk magic and neither is more right, correct, educated, or "powerful" than the other.

Then, among those who count ingredients, certain numbers may be preferred. Most common are 3, 4, 5, 7, and 13 -- and there are reasons for all, as Mary described above.

4: For more on the link between the Native American use of the number 4 and its connection to African American hoodoo root doctors, see this 19th century account of a jack ball made by 4s, as described by Mary Alicia Owen at this "Southern Spiritrs" web page:

Hoodoo Luck Balls (Jack Balls) by Mary Alicia Owen
http://southern-spirits.com/owen-hoodoo-luck-balls.html

5: For more on the 5-spot or quincunx pattern, see the potion of this page at "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" that describes the quincunx and its uses:

Laying Down Tricks and Disposing of Ritual Remains in the Hoodoo Tradition
http://luckymojo.com/layingtricks.html#quincunx

7: For more on the number 7, including the old hoodoo formula called "Japanese Lucky 7 Oil," see this "Lucky W Amulet Archive" page:

Lucky Number Seven
http://www.luckymojo.com/number7.html

13: For more on the lucky number 13 and Lucky Mojo Lucky 13 spiritual supplies, see this "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" page:

Lucky 13 Spiritual Supplies in Hoodoo Rootwork
http://www.luckymojo.com/lucky13.html
catherine yronwode

rjwcim

Re: Odd Numbers

Unread post by rjwcim » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:04 pm

hehe thanks you guys. I always wanted some thoughts on this, normally people would just say that's the way it was, the way it is, and the way it will be. But you guys have given me alot to think about, thank you =)

PS. Yeah, yeah, I know I'm a nerd, but I like to learn all that i can <3

Ra'Shay

snake

Re: Odd Numbers

Unread post by snake » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:12 pm

In Polish tradition, I learned that odd numbers are for the living and even numbers are for the dead. It's sort of a lucky/unlucky thing, you use "living numbers" unless you really really want to use the dead numbers.

Not Africn American hoodoo, but interesting folk tradition.

dianna

Numerology and the Meanings of Numbers in Hoodoo

Unread post by dianna » Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:21 am

I don't know if its because im doing spells but ever since i started doing this ..im always waking up at 11:11 or 1:11 ..something with 11:11 or with number 8. Does this mean soething? I mean really..its been a week since I wake up at 11:11 and when I watch the clock during daytime it's alwats 4:48 or 2:08,8:08 and so on.

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Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by jwmcclin » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:29 am

I think there is power in numbers.

I believe that the number 5 is representative of the Quincunx pattern; to me, the number 7 is considered a lucky # and I magically use #7 to attract luck in money and love; i personally use number 9 in commanding and compelling spells, and in my own work # 13 is used in uncrossing and purification spells. These are my personal ideas and they are not traditional teachings in hoodoo.

As for 11:11 or 1.11, some people do consider it a magical and powerful #. Some people make wishes at that time. If it is in any way related to Hoodoo, I am not familiar with that.

LMs sells several book on numerology. Look at them here...http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatbooks.html

To name a few: Predictions Library by David V. Barret
Billy Bing's Dream Book
True Fortune Teller: Dreams and Numbers by Ralph Anderson
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IBMagnet

Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by IBMagnet » Fri Dec 25, 2009 11:59 am

There is a website -- not hoodoo realted -- where you go make wishes and carry the #8 and flash it to the moon for a period of 8 days. They mentioned at that site that after a while you start seeing 11:11 or 1:11 everywhere. I did it once and didn't see anything to that effect.

Is that what you did and are referring to? for all it is worth, one of my wishes came true. it was a small test wish.

When i get my delivery from LM I may be tempted to magnify that spell bit.

I think everything has to do with the power of intentions. Already, with LM candle, I got quicker results. Maybe the ritual of burning etc... help create and anchor the magnetic vibrations. I don't quite understand how this works.

Does anyone know anything about exposing the #8 to the moon for 8 days with a wish? you basically visit this wish web page everyday, write down #8 and flash it to the moon for 30 seconds. what does that relate to?

Princesa

Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by Princesa » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:50 am

Hi All,

I have a question on the number of herbs that I should use in my conjure. I understand in hoodoo, the number of herbs is significant when casting a spell (e.g. 13 for crossing, 5 for drawing, etc. ~ not sure if my numbers are correct..) .. I am planning on making a poppet (to represent my target), and stuff the poppet with communication and obstacle removal herbs. The intent for the poppet is to initiate communication and remove obstacles between our communication process. I just want to find out how many combination of herbs I should use?

All your advice are very much appreciated!

Peace & love,

Princesa ;)

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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by CopperFox » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:14 am

Princesa,

What you "understand" to be a part of hoodoo, with respect to odd numbers, is something that has popped up on the internet lately and is not really a teaching among African American rootworkers. See the posts by Miss Bri's and Miss cat above for more information on this.

Some people do not count ingredients. Some who do count ingredients will consider a blend of herbs to be one ingredient; others will count each individual component in the blend as an ingredient. It is really up to you.

Some people do like to include an odd number of ingredients in hoodoo formulae; i.e. 3,5,7,9. Some do not.

Since I have an odd liking for 3 and multiples of 3, I do sometimes end up with 6 ingredient blends...so there are no true set in stone rules. Let your intuition guide you as to what ingredients you have access to will best serve your needs.

Good luck,
Michelle

P.S. Mercury turns direct tomorrow, so you're right on time for your communication dolly to "come to life!"
Michelle Hunter, a.k.a that Tricky CopperFox
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Psalm 121

Princesa

Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by Princesa » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:16 am

Thank you so much, Michelle for the advice =) ..

Yes, I'm counting of the Mercury turning direct to assist me in my communication dolly

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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by jwmcclin » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:29 am

The number 5 that you mentioned Princesa, is represented often with the Quincunx -- marking 5 corners and a center (a method used to seal a trick)
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by starsinthesky7 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:59 pm

Princesa,
13 is not only associated with crossing. It can be use for powerful crossing, cleansing,or even drawing work. 7 is used for more drawing work, cleansing and so on. 3 is bare minimum for any kind of work. 9 is the magical number and is great for all different types of work, personally I like to do work for crossing and so during this time. Personally I would put at least 7 ingredients in to your doll, but if you only have 3 or whatever then that is fine. I mean sometimes you have to go with what feels right.
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by ConjureMan Ali » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:57 pm

I certainly recall at least one worker describing a potent dollie with seven herbs -- of either love or destruction -- with Spanish Moss as a stuffing.
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bountyfarmer

Tot placing Numbers

Unread post by bountyfarmer » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:58 am

My toddler likes playing with cards (just regular playing cards with numbers on them. I've noticed for the past several months that he will put them down in random order and walk away. didn't think much about it until today when he had the numbers 235 down in his room as well as 89 below that. Then he put the cards 89 down in the kitchen. I've had a hunch that he's trying to tell me something but I don't know what. When ever I clean up the cards the next day he will go and put them down again. I just figured that he was playing but now I am beginning to suspect otherwise. Can you help me make sense of it please?

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Re: Tot placing Numbers

Unread post by MissMichaele » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:00 am

Is he putting down the same numbers every time he plays with the cards?

Maybe he just likes the way those patterns look. If he watches a lot of Sesame Street, he might recognize those numerals without having a clear idea of what they mean.

But on the magical/spiritual level, maybe it's time to gather up some loose change and see what happens with a lottery ticket. Mind you, I don't gamble myself -- never really got the hang of it.

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Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by starsinthesky7 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:38 pm

In my studies I have learned that 9 is the number of magic and, in some cultures, it is said to be the most powerful number you can use. In other cultures, it is not. I personally do not just use it for commanding and compelling work but also for crossing, and even drawing spells for more oomph. But 9 is definitely a powerful number of magic to me.

In my opinion, 7 is a good number that most people consider lucky and you will see it used a lot for blessings, money, love etc. But if you want to use it for crossing, or cleansing then do so.

In my own practices, 13 is not just for uncrossing and purification either. I think that anyone can use it for crossing spells, and revenge work.

As I work, 3 is the BARE minimum i think that you should do work for.

Do not feel like you have to be confined to these numbers for any given manner. They are just my personal ways of working.
Thank u St. Martha for everything you have done on my behalf.
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Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:08 pm

Because this is a complex topic which seems to have garnered an ungainly amount of attention on the forum lately, and many people have asked questions on the subject, i am gathering my previous posts on the subject and expanding them with further thoughts and illustrations, and adding the material directly to my online free book "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" today. The URL is

http://luckymojo.com/numbers.html

For information on the following specific numbers, see the links indicated:

4:
Hoodoo Luck Balls (Jack Balls) by Mary Alicia Owen
http://southern-spirits.com/owen-hoodoo-luck-balls.html

5:
Laying Down Tricks and Disposing of Ritual Remains in the Hoodoo Tradition
http://luckymojo.com/layingtricks.html#quincunx

7:
Lucky Number Seven
http://www.luckymojo.com/number7.html

13:
Lucky 13 Spiritual Supplies in Hoodoo Rootwork
http://www.luckymojo.com/lucky13.html

cat
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Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by IBube » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:11 pm

Interesting information about numbers. I think sometimes we focus in on trying to find a rule to follow and lose sight of relying on our own wisdom and what feels right.

I'd like to add, just for fun, that 3 is considered a feminine number in many West Afrikan cultures such as Dogon and my own original culture (Bubi). 4 is considered a masculine number and 7 is important because it is a combination of male and female. But I don't think this carried over to Afrikan American hoodoo.

It's true, there don't seem to be a lot of hard and fast rules in hoodoo. My grandfather was deep into hoodoo although he never taught me any. One day I'll have to share a true story about a mojo he made...but anyway whenever he did whatever he was doing, it seemed (to my untrained eye) like haphazard actities such as spitting on things, suddenly walking backwards, or sweeping the floors. It didn't appear mechanical at all. It was just natural things that we normally do sometimes, which is probably how my slave ancestors were able to carry on the traditions without getting caught. I'm learning so much on here. Thank you all.

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Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:31 pm

Ibube, i caution you against taking the opposite idea. There ARE "hard and fast rules" in hoodoo. They are just not the rules about NUMBERS that were mentioned above.

For instance, it is a general "rule" in hoodoo that magical packets, mojos, gri-gri bags and so forth should be wrapped, tied, or sewn shut. They are never left open. This derives from African methods of working.

So there are "rules" -- but they don't happen to concern the number of times a name must be written on a paper for crossing versus the number of times it must be written on paper for winning the lottery.

P.S., by the way, with respect to your family's traditions: In conjure practice, spitting on things, walking backwards, and sweeping the floors are all VERY IMPORTANT ways of working and have come down to us from African -- and other -- cultures.
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Re: Numerology in hoodoo

Unread post by IBube » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:16 pm

Friends!

I misspoke in my earlier post regarding West Afrikan numerology. I just noticed it when I re read the thread. 3 is a maculine number and 4 is feminine. My apologies. Take care, all.

LuciferRising666777

Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by LuciferRising666777 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:20 pm

Hi,

I didn't know exactly where to put this which seems to be a re-occuring theme for many people in forums etc. This seemed like my best bet but maybe I was wrong. I keep coming across spells in hoodoo, voodoo, santeria and they probably exist in other African Magickal/Religious traditions as well. Well, these spells constantly call for nine pinches of ingredients or nine berries, nails, and other odds n' ends. Im not a beginner in magick or the occult and I do have knowledge of what the number nine means in numerology and kabbalah etc. but what is the significance of it in hoodoo root work? I know that a major aspect of hoodoo is to use un-even numbers ending at a total of 13 ingredients or at least thats the case with mojo bags. Is nine used because its an un-even number or is there more to it? Personally I am someone that enjoys learning and understanding these kind of things. I have a real fetish for old world magick or rather folk magick and hoodoo DEFINATELY fits that category!

Thank you for your help and Happy New Years to everyone even if it is a few days away.

Ty

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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by starsinthesky7 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:43 pm

Hi there, LuciferRising666777

We have previously spoken about this topic on the forum and your query has been merged into the topic thread that deals with the subject. Please read from the beginning of the thread and if you have more questions, just ask.
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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by jwmcclin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:10 pm

Nine is consistent with Mastery, Spiritual Power, and Wisdom. The number 9 is used in commanding, compelling, bendover work to impose power over another, whether it is business or love related, commanding type word is done for nine days, using nine ingredients and reciting 9 prayers nine times. A good example is the nine (9) Herb bath which is incorporates the number nine in completing the ritual.
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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by starsinthesky7 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:26 pm

Indeed, 9 is the magical number, and is typically used for crossing, or domination work. However its great for all kinds of work in the sense of power. I have heard of 13 being even more powerful than 9 , and is considered a lucky number such as with lucky 13 oil and products. It is a powerful number to work with when it comes to uncrossing, and crossing work.

And it is not all odd numbers, but Ive only seen 3, 7 which is mostly associated with drawing, and luck work, 9, and 13.

I can't find the thread, but I remember Miss Cat commenting about numbers, and that some rootworkers abide by these "rules" But its not highly significant in folk magic, and something that is a rule per se. I can't find the thread, but I will definitely post it if I run across it.
Thank u St. Martha for everything you have done on my behalf.
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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by Miss Tammie Lee » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:27 pm

Here is a link to the (9) Herb Bath which jwmcclin mentioned:
http://www.herb-magic.com/9herb-bath-9.html

You also may wish to consider Hoodoo in Herb and Root Magic to find out even more:
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html

Good luck and welcome to The Forum!
Work the Lucky Mojo products for you and for those that you hold dearly!!!
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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by jwmcclin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:42 pm

It seems we are all on the same page here, I was looking for that link too starsnthesky7 and Triplethreat.
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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by ConjureMan Ali » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:24 pm

Working by numbers is something that is done by some rootworkers, but not all. Conjure is a set of traditions passed down within family lines and from teacher to student. Some of these individuals taught to work by numbers, to count ingredients, yet there isn't a specific counting rule. Some worker count their ingredients, some do not. Those that do count their ingredients, differ on what to count. I.e. do you count a mix as one or more than one, do you count the personal concern, or not, do you count the petition paper or not.

So there isn't going to be any universal set of rules in regards to numbers. It is best to view it as a series of principles, traditions, or practices.

Some teach that 3 is sacred, 7 attracts or is lucky, 13 is bad luck and so on and so forth, yet you'll hear differing accounts. For example, Momma Starr teaches to work with the number 5. This isn't something you hear on this forum too often, but workers such as Momma Starr like to work by 5 because it invokes the 5 spot and crossroads. Other workers don't work with the number 5.

Hope that helps.
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LuciferRising666777

Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by LuciferRising666777 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:37 am

It would seem a bit like "over-doing it" to say thank you to everyone in separate dfferent replys so I will say it here, THANK YOU EVERYONE for your help and kindness!

Ty

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Re: Significance of the Number 9 In Root Work

Unread post by jwmcclin » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:24 am

You are welcomed, we are here to help each other, I learn from everyone on the forum.
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Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:01 pm

hi all out there . I have a good one for you, and need your help'. For the last 6 months I been getting up in the morning from 4 am to 6 am . so like this morning I got up at 5:53 am when u add thers number up they come to 13 . yesterday i got up at 4:09am wich is 13 this has been happening to me in many ways I see the number 13 a lot ,as well I come a cross it out in the Streets . this number is around me A lot . Can some one help me with this. or know what this may be saying to me . Thank u for your Time Ken
Angel of God. My guardian dear, To whom his love commits me here, Ever this day be at my side. To Light, To Guard, To Rule, and Guide.

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Re: Number 13

Unread post by starsinthesky7 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Messenger in NYC.

Welcome to the forum. Unforunately this is not a general hoodoo forum, but one geared especially towards lucky mojo products. I would suggest that you get a reading on the matter and what it means for you. 13 in hoodoo can be quite lucky.

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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:53 pm

Still Need some help with this Matter . is this Good too see the Number 13 so many times. or too see it al all. where ever I go i come across this number 13 .
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Thank you Starsinthesky7 for your help . Messager In NYC
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Mama Micki » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:31 am

Lucky Mojo sells Lucky 13 products. Could be a good time to try them.
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:45 am

Thank U Mama Micki
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by starsinthesky7 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:26 am

Definitely a good recommendation from Mama Micki. The lucky 13 products are great for luck in gambling, lottery, and other games of chance. I would definitely recommend that for anyone who likes games of chance.

http://www.luckymojo.com/lucky13.html
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:39 pm

Welcome back, Messenger in NYC. I got the call at the shop that you were locked out of your account somehow, and told you to just re-register -- and it seems to have worked. I know you look new here due to a low post count, but you've been here for a long time!
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:01 pm

Hi there Cat thank you for the welcome back be doing a lot of work with Nicole and Grace what great lady's to work with . hope all is well with u , will be giving u a call soon. ken
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:21 pm

Up date on number 13. So I had a Lucky 13 Candle set on the Altar for me. got the report today . and it was not good , it was very Negative. and there was a crack at the bottom of the candle. this is not good at all. too many things are not going well around me, and my home. when i get rid of one thing , some other thing comes my way , So will be doing a good cleaning tomorrow . and it is time to Call the big Cat in on this . for so help ... all help welcome
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:13 pm

Geez, that's pretty bad, when a candle cracks like that. I know you have been going through some bad things lately. I will light a white 4" free light for you on Sunday morning.
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:50 pm

Thank you Cat for that candle Have a reading with u on this Thursday . talk to u then all the best Ken
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:20 am

As you all know that i did A Luck 13 Candel . and it was not good . did a reading with Cat and that is always good , Well I will do one more Candel next month on the 13, to see what happens. But have not seen that number 13 in weeks . wich I think is A good start .
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:51 am

Sometimes i think of these things as having the qualities of a storm -- you run into a stromy patch, then it blows over. If someone was doing work and trying to spook you by tying the number 13 to it, and you were trying to turn the bad to good, via Lucky 13, they may have thought they were having no effect and moved away from that technique.
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:23 am

Woow really Cat thank u for that but this morning the number 13 eas back in a way . when I got up this moring and i looked at the time it was 310 and u can see there is the 3 and the 1 , But where i live the number of my building where i live . and one of the person's that I think may be doing some thing to me live's here as well . i will be playing this number today may be this well be lucky for me I hope Cat .
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Re: Number 13

Unread post by Messager In NYC » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:41 am

well it happen this morning I got up and there was 310 on the clock . but it gets better went to the bathroom ad when i came out the clocl said 4;45 . there is some thing going on here . and we will get to it
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by GoodLuckNatalie » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:52 am

Quick related question:

It's tempting to take a bit of each herb one has at hand which appears to serve a given purpose. - what is the reason to keep the number at 13 or below? Does it muddle the effect? Is it similar to putting every spice in your kitchen in a single dish - resulting in making it taste bad?

I did an inventory of my herbs - looking for herbs that would help with my current purposes, and I had many to choose from. This is nice :). I've just been curious about the reasoning regarding keeping the number of herbs relatively low in a given formula.

I'm sorry if I've missed this somewhere obvious. It's not for lack of searching. :)
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:43 am

There are, in different cultures, different "sacred" and "important" numbers.

Insofar as the folk-mgic of hoodoo is a blend of the African folk-magic of slaves with the folk-magics of European slave-owners and bond-servants and the folk-magic of Native Americans and the folk-magic of other small American populations, such as Jews, Chinese, and Asian immigrants, you will find in hoodoo a reflection of those cultures and their favoured numbers.

Here are some ways to think about numbers. The emphasis is on THINK, not on "follow a rule-set."

1 is lucky in and of itself; one John the Conqueror root may be carried as a "lucky piece," and although not many people think of this as a "hand" because it is a solitary item, but stiil, it may be thought of as a hand.

2 is a pair and is highly favoured the world around in making love-charms; two of any seed, nut, bud, or berry stands for the two people who will love one another in a mated pair; this is found everywhere in hoodoo as well as in most systems of folk-magic; two small Lodestones wrapped in flannel, two Balm of Gilead buds, and other pairs are often used in hoodoo, and they need no third item to make them functional as a love-hand.

3 is favoured among Jews and Christians; to the latter it symbolized the Holy Trinity; it is also found in modern Hinduism as the Trimurti; it is a common number in many forms of folk-magic, from Stregheria in hoodoo, insofar as they are basically Judeo-Christian folk-magic; it is typically thought of as the minimum number of ingredients in a hand -- with the exception of a love-hand, which may contain two items.

4 is favoured among many Native Americans and some Asians; to some Chinese-speaking Asians it means bad luck and death; it is found in hoodoo among those of Native American lineage as a number of power; in Africa, especially in the Congo, it is a sacred number for the division of space, the crossroads.

5 is, in hoodoo, the most common shorthand representation of the crossrossroads cross (+ or X in a circle), the 4 corners being defined by 5 spots, including the center; this is called a quincunx by ethnographers.

6 is favoured among some Native Americans as representative of the six directions (derived as four planar directions and two vertical directions), but these tribes are not located in in the American South-East, where hoodoo developed, so 6 is a minor number in hoodoo, except as two groups of 3.

7 is favoured among Jews, Christians, and all cultures that engage in sky-watching, as it derives from the "seven sacred planets" -- 5 visible planets plus the Sun and Moon, portrayed as deities -- from which is developed the concept of 7 days of the week, each "ruled" by a God-Planet. It is a prime number.

8 is favoured by some Chinese people and is identified with the modern infinity symbol elsewhere; not central to hoodoo, but as the first of the notable binary duplicators (in the series 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 31, 64, etc) it stands for something that may endure for a long time.

9 is favoured among some Africans as three times three; it is less central to European folk-magic.

10 is a purely secular number, as can be seen with the decimal system, ten-based, with which skeptics and scientists have long tried to replace the older 12-based system of feet and inches.

11 is a prime number and a lucky winning number (along with 7) in the popular African American game of shooting dice.

12 is favoured among some Europeans as the number of Solar months in a year, as a very divisible counting-number, a dozen, which has many factors for its size; it is contrasted with --

13, the number of Lunar months in a year, which is disfavoured among practitioners of Solar religious inclination, but sometimes clung to by conquered people (both in Europe and the Americas) as a remnant of an older, vanquished sacred Lunar calender; hence, bad-luck that is secretly empowered as good luck, such as "Lucky 13" -- "reverse bad luck -- or the proverbial "baker's dozen" -- an extra, unexpected gift or price-discount.

There are other interesting historical and philosophical beliefs adhering to these and other numbers, such as 11, 22, 24, 99 and so forth, but these should start you thinking.

Now, the question that has not been asked is -- "How many people actually COUNT the number of ingredients in a hand?"

The answer: "A lot fewer than rule-obsessive people want to think!"

That's right -- the counting of items, the obsessive poring over of lists of herbs to make them come out to a propitious number is not central to folk magic as a whole. It has more to do with personality types than with cultural systems. In other words, in every culture, some people are "counters" and some people are not. The number favoured by any given "counter" will be culturally induced, but the desire or obsession to count is personal.

In fact, to those who are not obsessive counters, counting ingredients can seem entirely bogus, for, when Spirit says, "Grab this and this and this and this," are you gonna argue with Spirit that, "Oh, no, that's not an ODD NUMBER!"

Remember, thinking is what makes you human. Following rule-sets never lets you rise beyond the status of a well-trained dog.
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by GoodLuckNatalie » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:20 pm

Thanks so much cat for spending the time to write such a gorgeously articulated response. I don't think I'm capable of being eternally obsessive with counting, but I'm very glad to get more understanding of the reasoning behind it. Bonus that it's appealling reasoning to boot . Thanks much. :)
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by fire_and_ice » Wed May 09, 2012 6:49 am

Greetings,

After reading some of the Lucky Mojo web pages as well as some of the threads in the Lucky Mojo Forum, including this thread, I come to the conclusion that the number 11 doesn’t really have any significance in Hoodoo. Though, I believe that I read somewhere in this Forum that the number 11 has a reputation for bringing good luck to gamblers because of the dice game called Craps/Shooting Dice/Back Alley Dice having this number as a winning number. But that doesn’t explain why the number 11 is part of the name of the 7-11 Holy Oil.

In Hoodoo, is the number 11 a relatively neutral or insignificant number that doesn’t have any good luck or bad luck associations?

Also, and this question is most important: Are there any numbers in Hoodoo that are considered unlucky, numbers that one should avoid if possible?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by fire_and_ice » Mon May 28, 2012 6:51 am

Hmmm...It's too bad that no one replied to my post. I do still wonder why the number 11 (eleven) is part of the 7-11 Holy Oil. I especially still wonder which, if any, numbers are considered unlucky in Hoodoo, numbers that one should avoid if possible. After doing some research, all I could come up with is, according to Hoodoo researcher Jeffrey E. Anderson, on page 106 of his book Conjure in African American Society: "[King] Alexander said, ten was an unlucky number, and Missouri's conjurers carefully avoided it." This sounds rather important: number ten is considered such an unlucky number in Hoodoo that conjurers carefully avoided it. Since, according to Hoodoo researcher Jeffrey E. Anderson, ten is considered quite unlucky in Hoodoo, it is disappointing that no one posted about this on this thread.

Jeffrey E. Anderson also states, on page 105 of the above-mentioned book, "According to King Alexander, three and seven were good numbers to conjure with, nine and five were better, but the best number for hoodooing was four times four or four times four times four." I thought the number nine was used only for Crossing and/or Uncrossing work in Hoodoo; I didn't know it was considered a lucky number for general good luck purposes. As for this: "the best number for hoodooing was four times four or four times four times four", well, I never heard that at Lucky Mojo, and I don't even know how someone would use "four times four or four times four times four" in a spell.

But I'm still most concerned about learning about:
a.) The number eleven (especially why it is important enough to be in the name of the 7-11 Holy Oil);

b.) The number ten, and if this number is considered as unlucky in Hoodoo as researcher Jeffrey E. Anderson reports it to be, how do Hoodoo practitioners go about avoiding the number ten;

and

c.) What the (other) unlucky numbers in Hoodoo are and how we should avoid these unlucky numbers in Hoodoo.

Well, I guess that the professional Hoodoo workers are busy with clients and such, but i do hope to receive a reply this time.

Thank you for your attention.

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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by aura » Mon May 28, 2012 7:39 am

Hi fire_and_ice,

As a general rule, hoodoo workers will favour odd numbers. But as has been mentioned above, not all Conjures count the items in their work, and among those of Native American descent, 4 may be important, despite not being an odd number.

Furthermore, how you count out items will be different from one worker to another so what is 9 items to one worker who counts only the roots in a bag, will end up being 10 to another who counts the name paper as an item.

Thank you for your scholarly reference on 10s. The only association I can see is a biblical one, the Ten Plagues of Egypt that Moses called down. But then, on the positive side, Moses also provided man with Ten Commandments.

Perhaps more well read members such as ConjureMan Ali and Miss Cat can provide you with an answer closer to what you were looking for. But I'll admit, that I don't usually think out my work that far. I look at the results rather than the amount of ingredients in the mix. If it works, then it was done right.

Blessings and best of luck.
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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by fire_and_ice » Mon May 28, 2012 11:56 am

Thank you for your reply, aura. Since much pertaining to Hoodoo is new to me, I do wonder about any unlucky numbers one should avoid. I'd rather have some knowledge beforehand instead of finding out the hard way that a number (such as 10) will probably bring me bad luck, especially if I use it in conjunction with a spell. Also, it is confusing that the somewhat insignificant number 11 is used as part (part of the name, at least) of the spiritually important 7-11 Holy Oil (which, as I understand it, has nothing to do with gambling luck, which is the only area that I know of where the number 11 has some significance).

Then, of course, there was that information about the number nine being very good/very fortunate for use with many types of spells, not just with Crossing and Uncrossing spells, but also with good luck spells, spells for attracting good things to you, and the like. I also didn't know that the number five was considered very lucky in Hoodoo (even luckier than both the number three and the number seven).

And then, also courtesy of Jeffrey E. Anderson, there was this: "the best number for hoodooing was four times four or four times four times four".


Now, catherineyronwode made some interesting statements a few posts back, such as:
"'Here are some ways to think about numbers. The emphasis is on THINK, not on 'follow a rule-set.'"
(My response: In order for me to THINK about these numbers, I need some guidelines. Though catherineyronwode gave some helpful guidelines, there were a few pieces of information missing, especially about the unlucky numbers in Hoodoo.)

catherineyronwode also stated "There are other interesting historical and philosophical beliefs adhering to these and other numbers, such as 11, 22, 24, 99 and so forth, but these should start you thinking." (My response: As I've already posted, 11 in Hoodoo is confusing.)

And catherineyronwode also stated "Now, the question that has not been asked is -- 'How many people actually COUNT the number of ingredients in a hand?" The answer: "A lot fewer than rule-obsessive people want to think!'" (My response: While this thread is primarily about the number of herbs/ingredients to be used/counted in Hoodoo/Conjure, I was most interested in the "luckiness" and "unluckiness" sort of qualities attributed to these numbers in Hoodoo in general, not so much obsessively counting herbs/ingredients. For example, I'd be disappointed if I learned that I had done a Spiritual Cleansing spell for an unlucky number of days, such as 10 days, the number 10 being an unlucky number that one should avoid [according to Jeffrey E. Anderson]. And according to the information provided by Jeffrey E. Anderson, this spell would most likely result in bringing a great deal of bad luck and misfortune my way [because of the use of the number 10 in this example] which is not the outcome that I seek from a Spiritual Cleansing spell.)

I posted in this topic because this is where a discussion on various important numbers in Hoodoo was already taking place. I didn't know if it was appropriate for me to start an entirely new thread on a similar topic.

I also noticed that catherineyronwode and Jeffrey E. Anderson have quite contrasting views about the number 10 in relation to Hoodoo.

Let's hope someone knowledgeable in this subject eventually replies to my posts regarding this topic.

Thank you for your attention.

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Re: Question on Number of Herbs to be Used

Unread post by Joseph Magnuson » Mon May 28, 2012 12:10 pm

Understand that, like all divination, different people are going to have different association with specific numbers. I see this happen at least once a week with tarot readings. Yes, there is definitely a historical view of what these numbers "mean" and represent, but how you personally view them will also end up coming out in your own work. Since I was a very young child in grade school certain numbers already represented certain things to me, personally. Read the Hyatt books, one worker will say "I always only use this number of so-and-so in my whatchamacallit work" while another will say "oh no, I always use this amount." If you are looking for hard and fast Number Rules For Hoodoo you will be disappointed.
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