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Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

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Mama Micki
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Mama Micki » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:21 am

Dr Jumba and others, I suggest you use Google or another search engine to find the information you are seeking. This is a forum about Lucky Mojo products and traditional hoodoo. Also, candlemagician is a woman, so I removed "Mr." and "sir" from your post.

Everyone must decide for himself or herself whether he or she can practice magic within one's own spiritual belief. I am grateful that I found out about the tradition of Christian magic.
Gracias, Jesus Malverde!
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by be_777 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:38 pm

What happens though if you do unjustified work? For example, let's say the boss disciplines a subordinate at work, that person doesn't like it and lashes out by crossing the boss with a devastating curse that is not deserved. Are unjustified spells simply blocked by God from ever manifesting or are they allowed to manifest but the caster has that on his conscience and is later punished for it? Have any practitioners on these boards experienced a denied manifestation because the spell was unjust?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:35 pm

be_777 --

You are asking about religious beliefs and religious experiences and religious theology, if seems. We are not experts in this, and there are people of so many different cultures here, with so many concepts of God, that you would do better going from door to door and asking folks their opinions. No one here can speak with authority for YOU, only for themselves.

You know, a very wise pastor once said to me, "God answers prayer .. but sometimes the answer is 'No.'" there's a lot of thought in that sentence, which sounds funny, but actuually isn't. What he said after that was interesting too, and indicates that WHY God says, "No," may not always be known to us: "'And you know i'm right, 'cause if he didn't, then nobody's grandmother would ever die."

Some folks seem to think of God as GOD beyond understanding or knowledge and other seems to think of God as the runner of a rule-set, and themselves as players who are trying to game God's system.

Some see God as a friend:

Arizona Dranes: He Is My Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRWdO_zZi8Q

Some see God a fierce dealer in justice:

There's No Hiding Place Down There-The Carter Family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8osmxHMfRYE

As for me, well, i really do believe that if you do unjustfied work, your fate is not for us to judge -- it is in God's hands, and is up to YOU to find your own moral and ethical path in life, and to try to please God, however you conceive God, in your own ways and as best you can.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Joseph Magnuson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:00 pm

catherineyronwode wrote:As for me, well, i really do believe that if you do unjustfied work, your fate is not for us to judge -- it is in God's hands, and is up to YOU to find your own moral and ethical path in life, and to try to please God, however you conceive God, in your own ways and as best you can.
Beautifully said. Something to strive for and cultivate always. Thank you, Cat!
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Doctor Hob » Tue May 01, 2012 10:31 pm

catherineyronwode wrote:You know, a very wise pastor once said to me, "God answers prayer .. but sometimes the answer is 'No".
This is beautifully put, and worthy of keeping in mind. This very simple statement defines a massive part of magical work.
Two-Headed Doctor

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Odessa » Tue May 08, 2012 12:01 pm

Are there any ethical guidelines in Hoodoo/rootwork ? I read an internet blog article by Conjoureman Ali that said there was an "inherent doctrine of ethics" in regards to Hoodoo/Rootworking. I was wondering what ethics are? (note that I understand that Hoodoo/rootwork is a magical practice, not a religious practice.)
"if someone hands you lemons, mystify them by making a chocolate cake out of them"

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by aura » Tue May 08, 2012 4:00 pm

Hi Odessa,

the ethics of the conjure worked by any individual practitioner tend to reflect their personal religion. Most Conjures are Protestant and thus, ethically most do unto others as they would have done unto themselves. But as you already know from your own life: nothing is quite that clean and simple and thus many mitigating factors and personal experiences will colour any one person's ethics. Ultimately, you'll have to figure out what your own limit is in the work and in this you can work with Divination, as well as the Clarity and King Solomon Wisdom line of products.

Blessings.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by ConjureWitchery » Wed May 30, 2012 6:28 pm

Alright, my two cents . . .

First of all, since you mentioned that your boyfriend told you that magic is bad and black magic is the worst you can get, if you have the same mindset, then the magical path may not be meant for you at this time. If one views something as bad, or wrong, then I do believe their conscience, spirit, guides, what-have-you, will create a wall to prevent any magical energy from being released and thus preventing one from being able to utilize magic at its fullest potential and even being able to utilize one's self from achieving its fullest potential.

Secondly, I am one of those people who get a bit peeved when people view magic as black or white, and attributing those colors to positive and negative magics. Everything must have a balance. Light must have dark, positive must have negative, yin must have yang.

My beliefs in this issue can be summed up as thus: "One who cannot cross, cannot cure." I also think that the serious rootworker or practitioner will know both and know how to utilize both. However, their preference as to which one they utilize most is their choice.

As others have said, it does depend on individual choice and the religion/beliefs of that individual.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by mallika » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:19 pm

I wanted to ask about the binding spell. i'm not sure still if i want to do this till i get the right answers.

I've been with my fiance for 6 years now it took a lot to get to engagement he wants t be with me but is afraid of commitment. Reason for this is because his x-wife did him wrong has hurt him so deeply that he;s scared i may become like her after marriage... Which is not fair to me.

I Broke off the engagement a year ago and walked out but he came back 3 months later begging and crying he's holding on to me but at same time is not giving me security

i have gotten readings done and was told he knows he needs to work on himself and he;s just really scared that how deeply he;s fallen in love with me that's why he;s pulling back a little. we live together and i just am torn.

i did get Adam and Eve products and road opener, a lot more that was recommended by ms. Elvyra but i was reading about binding through using my menstrual blood. My mom had told me about this but i've not done it because as i said i'm not sure of bad karma but my friend who has done this says its with good intentions and since we live together and sleep together and were still a couple and physical involvement is still between us she is telling me i'm just helping speed the process so he gets over his fear of me turning into monster like his x-wife.

The reading i got done i was told this is destiny relationship ship of soul mates in past life we had struggle coming together so this life it will happen naturally and once soul mates come together they will be together again in next life.... so i wanted to know

1) if i was to do this is this going to mess with me being spiritual and spirits?

2) is it wrong in this case?

3) would this be bad karma?

4) would i have trouble because of this practice in my present or next life?

please help thanks....

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Mama Micki » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:48 am

Karma is a concept from Eastern religions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. Hoodoo originated with African-American Christians.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by koettingqueen » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:08 pm

Mama Micki wrote:Karma is a concept from Eastern religions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. Hoodoo originated with African-American Christians.
Another great point to make is that the way Westerners perceive Karma is EXTREMELY different than how Karma was originally related in ancient Hindu text. More importantly, it's VASTLY different from the Neopagan three-fold law, "what you send out comes back to you 3x", etc.. It's nice to think there's an external force that balances good deeds against the bad, but when you realize we're tiny microcosmic bacteria in an ever-expanding macrocosmic universe, you come to the understanding that everything we perceive as good vs. bad and is 100% subjective. Ultimately, it is our own thoughts that create the "karma". If you truly believe you did something wrong and need to be/will be punished, then that will be your life experience. If you truly believe your actions were justified and you did nothing wrong, then that is what you will experience.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by rocksandplants » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:54 am

Thats how many people fall into the rule of 3's, or runs of self created bad luck.

Karma is more a state of mind then a hard and fast rule.

Disposing of a serial killer is good "karma" for lack of a better word. Cause and effect might be a better way of looking at things. There are certain laws of physics that hoodoo and any other magical practice are built on. Foot track magic, contagion magic, homeopathy etc is all built on the principles of quantum entanglement. Spooky action at a distance as the physicists call it. Even full belief in "justified" actions dont always work. Many serial killers have full and justified belief in their actions (in their own mind) Like attracts like, and the further you go into revenge, attack, malice and hatred the more of it will be drawn to you. Like attracts like.

My definition of karma is the state of mind, plus the net effects to the world, returned to the individual when its approiate. perhaps not even in this life.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonBreath » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Ok, ya'll know I'm trying to learn about Hoodoo so I was wondering about tricks that affect children. Specifically, I've read on the Forum here where people have readings and find out that their bad luck is because some jealous or angry person cursed a parent or grandparent AND their children. As in the curse goes from the person they were mad at on down to the children and grandchildren etc .... Those children and grandchildren didn't do anything - they are innocent, so why does the bad luck go to them too?

If tricks and curses in Hoodoo have to be justified in order to stick - what justifies it sticking to unborn children who never did anything to the person who did the trick in the first place? Is it just that the person who did the trick is so powerful and full of rage that it (the curse) keeps on hitting the target's DNA down from generation to generation?

Also, if you find yourself the victim of bad luck thrown at your GrandMa, how do you reverse the curse back on the sender who is long dead? Would it then hit the sender's DNA - children/grandchildren who happen to be alive? Why would you want to hit them? You would want to send it back to the piece of poo who cursed your GrandMa. I don't understand how it all works. :?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by thatgirl » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:37 pm

I have not heard of reversing generational curses back to the sender. I'm not saying no one has tried or even successfully done it, but generational curses are dealt with in a slightly different way than you tend to see prescribed for general uncrossing. You don't have to send a curse back to the sender in order to take it off yourself. Sometimes a reversal is recommended because it's seen as just, because it may signal to the sender to back off, because it may stop the sender in their tracks, etc. But no, reversal is not the only way to uncross one's self.

Simply throwing for a person tends not to be something that sticks down the generations. However, it can affect the people close to the target. When a target's line is cursed it's often done specifically and intentionally. From a human perspective, it's nothing personal against those grandchildren... but directed at the "spawn" of some evil doer. "You're an evil person, no good will come to you or from you, everything you do or touch will turn to sh##." Screwing with every way possible that a person could find peace, joy, or hope, and... destroying a family name and legacy.

Curses don't have to be just to stick. A better way for me to explain it I guess is that... just curses stick a lot better than unjust ones. *And* it depends on the spiritual state of the target as well. If the target is *not* spiritually a-ok and the work is unjust, it may still be sticky. If you're spiritually a-ok and someone throws for you unjustly, it's not going to be all that sticky. It may not touch you at all, or it may only slightly affect you.

If a spirit was sent to attach itself to a family line (for lack of a better way of putting it) the morality in that case is sort of lost in the wind. It's no longer about someone directing a thing at you, but a something sent there that never left. It's not a constant state working like a jar or hand of some sort. It's an entity with no concern for justice.

Another way in which a curse can affect someone down the generations is say, you cross a man up so bad that it affects the way he treats his wife and children till his death. There's a bitterness in that man that's almost contagious and everything in the household has just absorbed it. This does not mean that the attending spirits of the innocent do not watch over them. Like with the target, their spiritual state will determine how affected they are by the conditions they're subjected to.

Buddha had a good understanding of this. :) Life isn't all cotton candy and gum drops. Bad things do happen, such is life. It should not be expected that everything will be good, pure, lucky, kind, and just at all times. There is an immeasurable amount of good and beauty in this world, but the pain and suffering are here right along side it. So, when you ask that question, you have to first consider the nature of the place we live in. Maybe I've never won the lottery, but I don't live in a shanty either. My children have shoes and more than enough changes of clothes. They're fed and healthy. They stay warm all winter and cool all summer. So, when pondering the nature of justice and entitlement, we have to be realistic in our view of the world we live in.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Mama Micki » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:18 am

Just because most of us believe that negative work has to be justified before God doesn't mean that everyone abides by that. There are people (some have posted on the Forum) that want to curse others with insanity, illness, and death because they ended a relationship, posted something on Facebook, or otherwise offended the would-be curser.

To get rid of a generational curse, I would get an Uncrossing kit and ask an ancestor for help.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Miss Bri » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:39 am

Getting rid of ancestral curses is tough work-I have seen cases treated successfully when root work, ancestor work, physical home or land clearing work, and most of the time some astrology are all combined. As far as justification-I agree with you Moonbreath-affecting unborn children is not ok in my book-but usually when a generational curse is laid down blood has been spilt, vengeance is desired, and the one doing the cursing wants to inflict as much damage as possible.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonBreath » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:12 am

Thank you for the replies. The clarification helps a lot. There are some people who have brought much trouble to me (and my family, by default). I have thought of reversing back to them, or worse ... but what stops me is not wanting to hurt their children/families. Of course, what they did to me has had devastating effects on MY family and they could care less. Then again, if I had the law come after them, which I can't, because they have money and power and I have neither, their families would be affected by the loss of income. I guess if I want justice, their families will be affected by what happens to them no matter what. You can't hit the breadwinner, either through legal means or prayer, without their family having to scramble and adjust to loss of income. But if the family members are pure of heart, a-ok spiritually as that girl said, they would recover quickly.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonBreath » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:23 pm

Just so ya'll know, here it is January and I still haven't done a thing. I am a few hundred miles away from those folks, trying to put it all behind me. I still wish for some justice ... but haven't had the ... heart ... guts to do a blessed thing. I worry about their families even when they didn't (and don't) give a damn about mine. What is wrong with me?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MaryBee » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:04 am

Nothing's wrong with you, honey. You're human and you're empathetic. But it's damaging to you to continue to have empathy for them when they don't for you.

Get a Cut and Clear Kit and perform the spell, and move on. You'll feel better :)

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Mama Micki » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:27 am

You can also ask Archangel Michael to help you cut ties to these people. Realize that you can't right all the wrongs in the world. Take care of yourself.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonBreath » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:44 am

Thanks MaryBee and Mama Micki - good advice.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by UniversalForce72 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:33 pm

If someone with ill intent physically harms, injures or abuses you or loved ones, is it reasonable to assume that if I cast a spell on that person to inflict upon them the same harm they've done that the spell will return to me?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by d1angel » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:09 pm

UniversalForce72,

Hoodoo doesn't work with karma or backfiring. It can't backfire on you.

You might try doing a reversal or mirror box spell to simply send the enemy's energy right back to them and do some protection and cleansing.
Donna

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by UniversalForce72 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:44 pm

Thanks! Here's my follow up question.

Say hypothetically I'm a practicing Wizard and also certified as a Hoodoo practitioner, and I wanted to perform black magic against someone who intentionally did phyiscal harm to me or my loved ones.

In the tradition of Wizardry (not sorcery), using black magic is shunned and it is believed that the spell will rebound back to the Wizard. I say this because Wizards shun "black magic" and believe it will return to you -- sometimes 3 fold.

1) Should I then perform the spell as a Hoodoo practitioner and not under the umbrella of Wizardry?

2) If so, would there be residual effects?

3) In other words, if I perform the spell in the tradition of Hoodoo but am I still affected because I'm aWizard and should know better?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Miss Tammie Lee » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:02 pm

UniversalForce72 ,

I'm not being ugly to you, but you may want to read these:

http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice, by Miss Catherine Yronwode

http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html

Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic, Miss Cat's book available to purchase.

http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooataglance.html

Hoodoo at a Glance, also by Miss Cat

The Lucky Mojo Catalogue:
http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html

This is not Hollywood. This is real magic.

Kind Regards,

Miss Tammie Lee
Work the Lucky Mojo products for you and for those that you hold dearly!!!
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:25 pm

malliska--

1) Not according to the way i was taught -- but some folks do believe the opposite.

2) Not according to the way i was taught -- but some folks do believe the opposite.

3) Not according to the way i was taught -- because i grew up learning that God judges us, not that there is a law of karma.

4) Not according to the way i was taught -- because in my religion, we don't believe in past or future lives.

=====

UniversalForce72 --

The concept of karma comes from Hindu religion (it is a Sanskrit word). Karma means that for every cause, there is an effect. It is called the law of cause and effect. Hindus believe in reincarnation, hence the law of karma is seen to govern not only effects within one lifetime, but also the form and station of one's rebirth, according to one's karma in this life.

Hoodoo is the domestic folk magic of Black Americans, most of whom are Protestant Christians. Christians believe that there will come a time or day of judgement, at which God will decide, based on how one lived, whether one will live on in Heaven (Paradise) or Hell (torment). There are no multi-lifetimes of do-overs in Christianity. You get one chance to live right.

As for Wizardry, that is a third kettle of fish, but as you describe it, your own branch of Wizardry sounds a lot like Wicca, with its "three-fold law of return." This is a special Wicca-ooriginated form of karma in which not only does cause produce effect, but somehow, through some cosmic agency, the effect is multiplied three-fold.

These three concepts -- Karma in Hinduism, Multiplied Karma in Wicca, and the Day of Judgement in Christianity -- do not correlate to one another and it is unlikely that a single person would subscribe to all three cosmologies.

Hence your question must be tabled for lack of evidence that any one person follows these mutually exclusive beliefs.

For more fun and games with religion, please see the very long and highly fascinating thread on Hoodoo and Religion, here:

hoodoo-&-religion-voodoo-wicca-santeria ... 10231.html

Good luck, and if you ever want help using Lucky Mojo spiritual supplies in the cultural tradition of African American folk magic -- just ask!
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Thu May 09, 2013 8:58 pm

Morality is our family or individual sense for what is good and what is bad behavior; or it is a religion's list, like the Ten Commandments.

Law is a formal, public community's list of what most agree is good and bad behavior.

Ethics is a profession's code of values, principles, and procedures that enables self-monitoring of good conduct; or it is a branch of philosophy that analyzes the concepts of good and bad.

Ya see where this is leading? Hoodoo is a spiritual folkway and not a formal religion. And Hoodoo is not a profession. So when we discuss ethics, are we philosophizing or are we flirting with the notion of Hoodoo becoming more like a formal profession with a Code of Ethics?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Thu May 09, 2013 9:05 pm

Vestapol,

For many root doctors, the practice of hoodoo is indeed a profession. The engagement of magical work as a profession has been documented in African American society since before the emancipation of the slaves. As a profession, root doctoring was documented in Africa before enslavement and continues to this day. The profession of magical-medical doctoring is also found among Native people in America and among cunning-folk of Europe.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Sat May 11, 2013 7:16 am

catherineyronwode wrote:Vestapol,

For many root doctors, the practice of hoodoo is indeed a profession. The engagement of magical work as a profession has been documented in African American society since before the emancipation of the slaves. Asa profession, root doctoring was documented in Africa before enslavement and continues to this day. The profession of magical-medical doctoring is also found among Native people in America and among cunning-folk of Europe.
Catherine, you and most of us want respect for our maligned faith. I'm sure you deserve utmost respect for your practice (and also for your HooDoo networking leadership). That's one important issue which unfortunately gets a bit clouded by the word "ethics".

For example, you say, "For many root doctors,..." Meaning many root doctors make individual moral committments to thier definition of what best practice is. But this is independent of consensus by a formal professional association of root doctors...which would be necessary for Hoodoo ethics. We do not have a Hoodoo Code of Ethics.

This is the key point. We are preserving a folkway (I don't think we're building a profession here). But we're tempted use the word "ethics" because we want legitimacy and respect of the public for the practice of our faith. And we lose sight of the fact that ethics is not individual morality, even when the individual sees oneself as a professional and chooses high standards of practice.

Most importantly, at least for me, HooDoo is an ancient spiritual folkway, not a profession, surviving without bureaucratic constraints of the professions. We keep HooDoo free from zenophobic systems. Thriving right under the noses of zenophobes. Now that's mojo!

Cheers,

Vestapol

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Sat May 11, 2013 7:31 am

Ethics: a formal profession's written code specifying Values, Principles, and Procedures, used for self-policing and to protect the community of clients.

Morality: family, individual, or religious definitions of good behavior and bad.

We're in the middle of these. Neither a profession or a religion, but preserving a spiritual folkway, the beauty of which is the resilience of oral tradition across continents & generations ...with a little help from Zora and other writers. But it's a stretch to claim "ethics" and be a spiritual folkway.

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Doug

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Sun May 12, 2013 8:14 pm

catherineyronwode wrote:Vestapol,

For many root doctors, the practice of hoodoo is indeed a profession. The engagement of magical work as a profession has been documented in African American society since before the emancipation of the slaves. Asa profession, root doctoring was documented in Africa before enslavement and continues to this day. The profession of magical-medical doctoring is also found among Native people in America and among cunning-folk of Europe.
After just now :roll: reading about the professional Association (AIRR), it's pretty clear professionalism is the goal. So ethics is on the table and, even if it's a stretch, it will be good to see how we help the spiritual folkways incorporate some formalities of professionalism and religion. It doesn't have to be either-or.

Cheers,

Doug

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Mon May 13, 2013 7:01 am

I am not sure that i follow your claim that ethics by definition deals with professional codes of conduct. Merriam-Webster says,"the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation," and that's good enough for me.

AIRR is not the first professional group of hoodoo practitioners, however. See also the history of the Colored Spiritualist Association of Churches, some of which were fairly open in the use of hoodoo.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Wed May 15, 2013 7:37 pm

catherineyronwode wrote:I am not sure that i follow your claim that ethics by definition deals with professional codes of conduct. Merriam-Webster says,"the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation," and that's good enough for me.

AIRR is not the first professional group of hoodoo practitioners, however. See also the history of the Colored Spiritualist Association of Churches, some of which were fairly open in the use of hoodoo.
Ethics has two definitions. One is the academic study of systems of good and bad, as suggested in your M-W definition. The other is a criterion...one of about six criteria...for a job to qualify as a profession (see Flexnor Report; I'm not an expert but I've served on two professional ethics boards). Morality is a bit different. It's personal, family, or faith system definitions of good and bad.

Conversationally, we often use the two terms, ethics and morality, synonymously. Which obscures the intention behind choosing one word over the other.

These distinctions are important for Hoodoo which, as a spiritual folkway, is traditionally guided by the individual morality of the Hoodoo practitioner, as passed from generation to generation. These distinctions make clear that we have strategic choices here, and we can be explicit & transparent about what our intentions are in making them...

What does it mean if we choose to emphasize one word and minimize the other? Do we want to preserve the folkway and therefore celebrate...tolerate or ignore...the individual moralities of all practitioners? Or do we want to professionalize Hoodoo and have a Code of Ethics to which all practitioners subscribe?

Is this clearer? I hope it's helpful even though it seems a bit ponderous... :roll:

Cheers,

Doug

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonBreath » Wed May 15, 2013 8:24 pm

All these definitions are ... wordy. I thought Hoodoo was more Folksy and Individual, while the AIRR were a group of Experienced, Talented, Individual Workers who have agreed to a code of Honor so to speak ... not to take advantage of people or scam them. So, AIRR members know what they're doing and you can trust them. That was my understanding.

Now for something completely different ;) What if somebody does something horrible to you and you'd like justice, but the reason said person treated you that way was because another party had cursed you to have trouble, misunderstandings, and bad things happen to you? So,... if you did work to reverse, would both people get hit? For example: if "Person A" put a curse on you last year to be treated badly by people you encounter, and that was the reason WHY "Person B" just yelled at you and threw you out of their place while falsely accusing you of something in front of lots of people ... which person, "A" or "B" would be hit by a reversal spell?

I did a reversal candle and was hoping to return not only the problems manifested by "Person B", but also the original ill intent to "Person A", whose identity I do not know. Am I expecting too much from 1 little vigil candle? Would "Person B", who actually did the damage, be in some way relieved of guilt to an extent because had it not been for the original curse of "Person A", they probably would have never acted that way toward me in the first place?

... so which one would be reversed on? I hope this makes sense ....

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MissMichaele » Wed May 15, 2013 11:01 pm

MoonBreath wrote:What if somebody does something horrible to you and you'd like justice, but the reason said person treated you that way was because another party had cursed you to have trouble, misunderstandings, and bad things happen to you? So,... if you did work to reverse, would both people get hit?
I don't see why not.
For example: if "Person A" put a curse on you last year to be treated badly by people you encounter, and that was the reason WHY "Person B" just yelled at you and threw you out of their place while falsely accusing you
When people throw curses, they don't generally write every detail of the script: for instance, Abercrombie will say, "Carlotta, you'll lose all your friends and be surrounded by enemies," but they leave it to Brunhilda to decide for herself that you've stolen her nasty, stupid, broke-azz boyfriend. When she pitches a fit about it, the spell made it possible, but the action is on her.
which person, "A" or "B" would be hit by a reversal spell?
Reversal spells bounce meanness back from whence it came; so I would say both.
I did a reversal candle and was hoping to return not only the problems manifested by "Person B", but also the original ill intent to "Person A", whose identity I do not know.
So I hope you burned it on "All my enemies and all those who cursed me, known and unknown."
Am I expecting too much from 1 little vigil candle?
Well, it's hard to lay down any theory about this -- I think a little divination could answer that question for you. Bibliomancy is one of the easiest methods, and one of my favorite.
Hope this helps,

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Thu May 16, 2013 12:46 am

Vestapol, you asked,"Do we want to preserve the folkway and therefore celebrate...tolerate or ignore...the individual moralities of all practitioners? Or do we want to professionalize Hoodoo and have a Code of Ethics to which all practitioners subscribe?"

I dunno. I'm not doing either of those things and i do not feel any need to engage in bivalent thinking of the kind you propose, nor do i feel moved toward any kind of either/or decision-making in this situation.

1. Rather than "celebrate, tolerate, or ignore the individual moralities of all practitioners" in the tradition in which i work, I am teaching everything that was taught to me, regardless of anyone's moral system. Furthermore, in discussing a morality system in hoodoo, i always make it clear that there is no monolithic "African American system of morality," although most African Americans are Christians.

2. I keep my morality to myself unless asked, but i respond freely when questions are broached to me about my personal beliefs. For instance, i am very clear in explaining that i tend to abide by the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule. I also have made it clear that i have performed death spells according to the principles known in hoodoo as ""justified work," that is, by presenting my case against a wrong-doer before God and asking Him and Him alone to decide the outcome, according to His own standards of Mercy and Justice.

3. I am very clear and outspoken about the fact that i personally won't perform certain types of activities that used to be commonplace (and in some cases still are commonplace) in the folk-magic and folk-religions of Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas. Specifically, the acts i personally will not perform include (a) trafficking in endangered plant or animal species; (b) torturing animals to death for the purposes of sympathetic magic; and (c) killing animals to acquire their "power" or "life force" either for my own use or to offer this "power" or "life force" to a deity or an ancestor. I even go farther than not performing such acts myself -- i speak freely about why i won't, and i encourage others to examine their own hearts in respect to the performance of such acts.

For me -- and, again, i am speaking only for myself here -- embarking upon this path and plan of teaching my students was the result of decisions i made 15 - 20 years ago, and i have been writing about hoodoo under those terms since 1995; it's nothing new.

As for a professional organization -- like i said before, we've had professional organizations in the hoodoo Spiritualist community since the 1920s. The Crystal Silence League, a magically-oriented Spiritualist prayer chain to which i also belong, was founded in 1919.

One organization of hoodoo practitioners of which i am currently a member -- the Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers -- first got off the ground in 2007 (6 years ago) and went online with a web site of 100 pages in 2009 (4 years ago). The other organization to which i belong, Hoodoo Psychics, was originated in 2011 (2 years ago). Both of these are relatively new, but they require members to abide by codes of ethics and codes of conduct that are similar to other groups of older vintage.

In fact, in developing the Code of Ethics and Code of Conduct for AIRR, our team researched similar ethical codes that had been published by Spiritualist mediums, hypnotherapists, astrologers, numerologists, and other practitioners of divination and magic during the 1940s, and we incorporated several of these older ideas into our own final Code of Ethics and Code of Conduct. You can read it online:

AIRR Code of Ethics and Code of Conduct
http://www.readersandrootworkers.org/wi ... _of_Ethics

We also publish a seed-document for potential clients, describing questions they can ask their readers and rootworkers:

Questions to Ask Your Reader, Rootworker, or Conjure Doctor
http://www.readersandrootworkers.org/wi ... ure_Doctor

We offer ideas for sample contracts to be drawn up between clients and rootworkers for cases in which significant fees may be involved:

Contract
http://www.readersandrootworkers.org/wiki/Contract

And, finally, we offer free Ombudsman services to mediate complaints between clients and rootworkers (as well as between members of the organization):

Ombudsman Terms of Service
http://www.readersandrootworkers.org/wi ... of_Service

I hope this is of interest to you -- and to others.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonBreath » Thu May 16, 2013 5:40 am

Miss Michaele, Thank you for the reply! :) That makes me feel so much better. On my petition in the Mirror writing I said "Our Enemies", so I intended that to mean everyone, known and unknown. My prayers also stated stuff like "Whoever started this mess", plus the known people ... so I feel like I am covered. Thanks again.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Thu May 16, 2013 7:04 pm

Catherine, thanks for the careful thought you put into this...your care for preserving Hoodoo traditions is clear.

Yeah, I kinda worry that professionalization and ethics might compromise the folk process. But your refusal to see folk process and professionalism as mutually exclusive is reassuring especially as I'm a newcomer to the Forum. You've set your sights on a good challenge. Excelsior!

I'll follow the links.

Doug

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by thatgirl » Thu May 16, 2013 8:43 pm

Vestapol- To me, hoodoo is a very generic term. Though they may not be written down in formal ways, these ethics already exist. One woman who practices hoodoo would never set out glasses of water petitioning Jesus, Joseph, and Mary when she's working. Said woman wouldn't even relate such practices to her own! Come to the internet and it's all under the umbrella of "hoodoo".

I've never met a soul outside of the internet who lumps these different groups and practices into one. There is definite differentiation! Codes of ethics from oral traditions. And anyone breaking those codes is *not* viewed as a fellow practitioner even!

For the little church ladies I know, the practices of my family would be termed pagan. And if done without belief in Jesus, evil! They would *never* in any way, shape, or form associate what they do with what my family does. For the more traditional people in my family, buying mass produced hoodoo isn't even remotely related to what they do, for instance. So, the codes of ethics are already there and glaringly obvious. It's only the outside looking in perspective that lumps these groups into one folkway, as you call it.

The woman working on my grandfather was not seen as practicing the same thing he did. And if you even dared suggest it you'd make a whole lot of people very angry. This respect for the many different facets of African American folk magic doesn't really exist within the groups themselves. So, a formal code of ethics isn't really an anomaly apart from its formality.

The real anomaly, IMO, is putting all of these different branches into one category. This doesn't exist on the ground level. The protestant church hoodoo lady does not agree with the practices of the catholic church hoodoo lady, and neither of them are okay with the practices of the backwoods. Of course I'm sure there are exceptions out there, but I've never met one outside of the internet.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Vestapol » Sat May 25, 2013 7:12 pm

thatgirl wrote:Vestapol- To me, hoodoo is a very generic term....Though they may not be written down in formal ways, these ethics already exist.
Thanks for the reminder about how diverse the Hoodoo practices and values are. Diversity is part of the folk process, the oral tradition. Which is exactly why the issues of good and bad are moral within Hoodoo, rather than ethical. Good Hoodoo practices and bad or abusive Hoodoo practices, these are defined by individuals in the oral process, handed down from one person to the next.

But that's not ethics. Read my posts above for the distinctions.

Cheers,

Doug

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by gettotheroot » Tue May 28, 2013 6:01 am

here's what I think about the subject....it isn't so much about the "karma", but more about universal law. Some people call this, "natural law". Karma is nothing more than the universe returning to you what you put out (which is why I advise people not to perform spells when they are angry or emotional). The same universal laws is what makes hoodoo and other forms of magic work in the same place, are the same laws that make "karma" work. Even some of the worlds most powerful magicians believe in "karma", besides, if there was no such thing, how come reversal spells work? I don't believe in karma as in something you deserve, but rather energy (rather positive or negative) returning or attaching itself to something or someone. energy has to go somewhere. Before you perform any spell, I would do the following:

1) Try to avoid "negative spells" unless you just have no choice at all....negative to me means anything destructive. For example; if you are dealing with a stalker or evil person, instead of performing a spell to destroy them or cause them harm, you could program a gemstone to keep negative energy away from you or to keep any enemy away. Use general spells.

2) Binding or Freezing spells- Again, I'm on the fence about this one, because when you bind someone from doing something, you're usually trying to stop them from doing something bad, whether it is gossiping,abusive behavior, etc. It is the only spell that I would perform that would involve concentrating on a specific person instead of performing a general spell.

3) Protection spells are the key- Uncrossing spells, building aura shields, using gemstones, and other forms of white spells are recommended. If you use these type of spells, it would be hard for anything negative to come your way in the first place. You wouldn't need to perform black magic. There are also white spells that can block spirtual/psychic attacks, and everything else. Prosperity spells are also good.

4) Before performing spells, I would suggest taking energy cleansing baths (with herbs). House cleansing is important. White sage is my favorite to do this along with cleaning with salt water adn lavendar soap.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Doctor Hob » Tue May 28, 2013 8:49 am

--gettotheroot,

Based on the above post, I gather you aren't real familiar with hoodoo. Besides karma not being a part of the tradition, you got into some other concepts (white vs. black magic, empowering gemstones. etc.) that aren't either. I don't have a problem with discussion, but this forum is about hoodoo.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating; karma means "cause and effect". One image used to represent karma is Buddhist imagery is the potter's wheel. You step on the pedal, and the wheel spins, and it keeps spinning, even if you don't push the pedal, again.

There isn't black or white magic. There is justified and unjustified work, and there is work you either do or do not feel comfortable doing. If you don't feel right doing revenge work, or binding work, then don't. I do, and it's nobody's place, but God's to tell me the work I do is wrong.

Reversals work for the same reason a mirror can redirect projected light, or that I can turn a punch thrown at me into a hip throw. It is energy mechanics.

I agree that protection can get you a long way, and that proper cleaning is crucial. I don't know how sage got tapped as the end-all of cleansing herbs, though. It has some leveling qualities, but it isn't a profound cleaner, like the pine or lemon families are.

I also agree that doing work while emotional isn't ideal, though not for any karmic reason. If you can't focus your own emotions, how in the Hell are you going to aim a spell?
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MissMichaele » Tue May 28, 2013 4:56 pm

Excellent post, Dr. Hob -- true and succinct.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Joseph Magnuson » Wed May 29, 2013 5:27 pm

gettotheroot:

You said,
Even some of the worlds most powerful magicians believe in "karma"
Yes, this is true, however some of the other "most powerful magicians" think that karma is hogwash.

Also, we all have to be careful about putting our own value system on others. Saying things like,
Before you perform any spell, I would do the following:
show this to be true. "You" and "I" are very different people and I respect that, but I understand that there may/will be a difference.

That said, I thank you for sharing your thoughts here.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Wed May 29, 2013 8:02 pm

gettotheroot,

Doctor Hob has schooled you. Take it to heart.

“It hath been told thee, O man, what is good and what the Lord doth require of thee:
Only to do justice, and to love mercy and walk humbly with thy God.”
-- Micah 6:8
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by gettotheroot » Thu May 30, 2013 9:05 am

Thank you for sharing that Doctor Hob.

I will admit, yes, I am new to Hoodoo, and yes I am still learning; I'm not new to magic though. I have always been up in the air about Karma, etc. because of my own personal beliefs about life and you have to also understand that many people on this forum are trying to undo many years of religious programming...which starts at a young age for many. I was not 100% sure that there really was a such thing or if negative luck was the doing of a person's own mind or thought process.

Hoodoo actually fits more with my personal beliefs about magic more than any other form of magic, however as someone else has mentioned in this forum, everything is not so cut and dry. It's going to take some time before people can 100% let go of this karma thing.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Thu May 30, 2013 6:03 pm

gettotheroot,

When you say that "hoodoo actually fits more with my personal beliefs about magic" than the idea of karma does, in essence what you are saying is that your personal theological, cosmological, and magical beliefs are more in alignment with hoodoo's basic African American Protestantism (an offshoot from Judaism), than they are in alignment with Vedism or its offshoots, such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Theosophy.

It is certainly true that if you look at religions as trees, then the tree of the religions of South Asia has a very different trunk of fundamental principles than the tree of the religions of the Middle East or the tree of the religions of Northern Europe. Some of the branches of each tree have become intertwined with the branches of the other trees. Some Europeans and European-Americans practice a Middle Eastern religion mingled with European religions, while other Europeans and European-Americans practice a European religion mingled with South Asian religions. It's all quite fascinating, really -- and, to the person trying to find the right tree in which to nest, there may be a period of trial and error, flying from one tree to another, until a comfortable branch is found.

However, while we understand and have compassion while reading about any given person's tale of religious, social, magical, or spiritual development and exploration, in the end nothing that is not about African American folk-magic is going to be of primary interest to our forum moderators and to the general public, who come to this specific forum to discuss that topic alone.

Our resources are limited, and the less time people spend describing their childhoods, their beliefs, or their personal religious histories here -- especially insofar as those events came about outside the African American community of hoodoo culture-bearers -- the more time we can spend here teaching folks the theory, history, and practice of African American folk magic.

We are glad that due to internet exposure, magically-inclined folks from outside our community are discovering hoodoo, but, frankly, how they got here and why they have decided to explore these particular spiritual and magical aspects of Black American culture are not our business. We are here to welcome them as friendly guests, to answer their questions about our practices, and to teach them what we know. We are not here to debate religious beliefs or to offer remediative religious therapy.

In other words, we are here to assist people with their understanding of the practice of hoodoo folk-magic, and specifically to assist the customers and clients of the Lucky Mojo Curio Company who purchase our hand-made spiritual supplies for their own family use and for use in their professional church and rootworking careers.

Thanks for understanding.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by MoonSunStar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:17 am

Hi,
I really don't understand what is good intention and what is bad intention. What I feel is good intention may be bad intentions in your eyes. How can a crossing/revenge spell be justified? I see that there's a lot of people wanting to take "revenge" on someone...What they're doing, won't it backfire on them at all? Doing harm to repay harm is still harm/evil no matter what reason...Are there no Karma laws in hoodoo?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by aura » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:24 am

Hi MoonSunStar,

I've merged your post into the long thread already existant on the subject. I suggest you read through it for differing opinions on the subject.

But short answer to your final question: no, there is no ''karma'' in Hoodoo nor any ''three-fold law''. Work is either justified in the eyes of God or it's not.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by be_777 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:07 am

I was curious how does Deuteronomy 18:9-12 fit in to the picture with rootwork? I'm confused. Any thoughts from practitioners about this issue?

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Miss Aida » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:07 am

Hello be_777,
This is a very complicated question and really not a subject for the forum.
If you want to discuss this in detail, PM me.
I will say that a few sentences in the Bible does not negate volumes of other versus and entire stories in the Bible.
I am going to edit your post so that it does not cause a heated discussion (which will force me to lock the topic).
Again, if this is really bothering you, just PM me and we can discuss this privately
Have a great day
Take care
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Mama Micki » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:13 pm

This is not a Forum on religion, although the hoodoo tradition includes using the Psalms and other Bible passages. One can probably find a Bible passage for or against any work or practice. There is the whole Mosaic code, which includes dietary laws, for example.
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by rocksandplants » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:41 am

I wanted to share my experiences with "karma". (yes i know , it is not part of hoodoo. hoodoo is a tremendously powerful set of beliefs and methods, i practice all witchcraft traditions and respect their various beliefs)

I have used love spells on people in the past, both domination to keep an ex around (which really, really backfired because she is quite skilled, and backfired on her because used one to catch me in the first place) and general attraction.

In my experience, it is not so much karma, the rule of threes or the wrath of god that comes back to us but our own actions returned to us. I could get into all kinds of specifics but that is what i have experienced.

I have used cleansing, reversal, mirror boxes, lodestones (and have learned all that actually works from this website, trust me, cat and the moderators do know best when it comes to hoodoo and what is real, repeatable and effective) hexing, even to the point of burying sociopaths with witchcraft. I have dabbled in every form, tradition, and crystal and botanical that i could get my hands on. I have summoned storms large enough to flood entire cities, and have also seen those same storms bring in record crops for the local farmers.

To me, our own belief structures are what determine how our own actions are returned to us. Our own state of mind determines what we create, and its return on us. Someone who doubts their ability to affect things using magic will have pitiful results. Sociopaths who lack any ethical or moral sense who use magic who do not doubt themselves get excellent results. As do moral and ethical people.

To me , "karma" can be explained quite simply, we live in a toroidal universe. (the inside is the outside) when our actions come back to us, as we are all connected, it is not some narrow minded set of ethics that determines its return, rather it is the true nature of its net effect. Burying a serial killer with magic is a net positive to me. As is burying a serial rapist, or someone who is cruel to all life. When i have hexed someone who truly deserved it, i always use cleansing, especially hyssop. In my experience, any aggressive work done without proper cleansing will always have bad effects on the sender.

Personally i do not believe that evil work, done for the sake of evil can be continued indefinitely, even with industrial strength cleansers. I would suspect that it is possible to carry on like that for an extended period of time, but certainly not for ones whole life. Atonement for nasty work is a concept some people toss around. I had a particularly troublesome person who constantly threatened me with violence, wouldn't leave me alone, continued to drag my ex into drugs and alcohol and i eventually had enough. I used a tree cancer blended with his personal objects, tobacco, and strong banishing plants, which finally worked. haven't seen him or heard of him in years.

I don't feel bad about anything i have done, and any person who is a threat to all life (or a lot of people) is on my hit list, i will foot track them, use personal objects, especially tobacco and enjoy the results. I always follow up with cleansing. I always read first, to see if it will work, if it is justified, and what i need to do to cleanse, whether its a small amount, or a large amount. Some of my projects have taken me years.

Thanks cat, for allowing this thread.

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RockaBilly1981
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by RockaBilly1981 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:23 am

I'm thinking of ordering the fixed "break up vigil candle service", and the fixed "healing candle" service. Some other woman broke me and my boyfriend of 12 years up. I was interested in purchasing this service as a way of getting back at her, and maybe so we can reconcile. I know it takes two, so I don't need to hear that. I was wondering if I will get any negative backlash from this, all I want to do her is what she did to me, and nothing more. ;)

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Miss Aida
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Miss Aida » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:34 pm

Hello, RockaBilly1981,

That sounds like justified work to me!

take care
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rossoporpora
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by rossoporpora » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:05 am

Hi, I have a serious issue about the work that I'm doing and I feel like I have to ask for advice, even if I already started the work.
I'm doing negative work on my ex new girlfriend, he's a Narcissist (a textbook one too, wicked, manipulative and with 0 empathy or sense of guilt but if you are familiar with them, I don't think I've to say much about him). I tried doing reconciliation work on us but I eventually decided I no longer wanted him as he showed himself to be a disgusting human being, more than I could have imagined.
I find it incredibly hard to do work on him so I shifted my attention to her, I do not wish to harm her but I want her to see what he is and get that "my life is complete crap when I'm with him, why is that?" sort of situation, if this makes sense.
I try to be specific and focus on the parts of my life he ruined, like gaining and losing big amounts of weight in short periods of time, sleeping issues and recurring nightmares, fighting with friends and family, having issues at keeping a job etc. All things that got back to normal once he left. And I'm specific in stating that these bad things happen only when they have any sort of contact-relationship so everything is associated with him.
I'm not the only woman he's hurt but after leaving me with health issues, depression and ptsd, I cannot let him get away with it.
I've actually started group therapy with others who had to deal with Narcissist partners and I'm working on myself as much as I can.
I also wash myself with hyssop, I purchased the oil, recite pslam 51 everytime I do work on her and I feel sorry for targeting her but, to me, it seems the only way, to me is justified but in any case whenever I pray I say "let his true self be acknowledged, let it affect other's lives in such a way they run away from him and he stays alone, he's a wicked man and needs to be alone so he can't hurt others".
I know he's in the so called "love-bombing" phase where he's the perfect man, this is why I feel is impossible to work on the relationship itself, I had people try to warn me about him and I didn't listen, I had to have my life destroyed to take a step back from him (and this is the actual reason he cheated on me and got his hands on her), it's true that I'm jealous as he's purposely keeping with her all the promises he made me and doing with her all the things I told him I wanted to do with him in an attempt to make me suffer (it's not the first time he's done this, I know what I'm talking about), but I absolutely can't stand the idea of him possibly ending up marrying her to do what he did to me daily. I gave this man 13 years of my life, I know him too well, I know what he's capable of and I prefer giving this woman a bit of hell and watch her run away from him without looking back than let them be and, possibly, having her put her life back together in like, 20 years from now as I am doing now. He also suffers from Multiple Sclerosis and he gets worse in his behaviour as he gets older, he used his illness to neglect my every need, using it to shut me up even when I was grieving the loss of a loved one and make it all about himself.

My problem is that, to me, what I am doing is justified, like hitting a dog that is eating chocolate in order to make him spit it out, but I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing as she doesn't even know about me. She's an innocent woman that thinks she's found the perfect man, just like I did back then. I don't know what to do, honestly.
Thank you, St Michael.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Miss Aida » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:37 pm

Hello, rossoporpora

If you're asking if you're justified to do negative work on him, it sure looks like it!

Although I have never been in a relationship with a narcissist, I have joined support groups for victims of Narcissist (because so many of my clients are victims and I want to know what they are going through. Additionally, as a Nurse, I am curious to the psychological aspects of how the Narcissists get away with all the harm that they do to others. And, keep getting away with it.....).

And, from what you are saying, this is a true Narcissist. And revenge and crossing is justified. I do talk about all of this (Narcissists, what is justified, etc) in my new book :" Cursing and Crossing" that is now available for pre-ordering.

post371377.html#p371377

HOWEVER, please do not put any negative work on her. She is innocent and any negative work on her would NOT be justified. If you want to perform skull candles with Clarity or King Solomon (to make her see the light), that is good work.

http://www.luckymojo.com/clarity.html

http://www.luckymojo.com/kingsolomonwisdom.html

If you curse him, the jerk deserves it
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rossoporpora
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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by rossoporpora » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:59 am

Thank you Miss Aida,

As I said, he's resisted all work I've done on him, I'm putting away some money to hire a rootworker at the moment and will let them do the work for me as I'm also too emotionally invested.

You're right about her being innocent, I know that too but in my head it makes sense.

As I said in my first post, before he discarded me for her, I had few issues in my life that took my full attention and of course he did all sorts of guilt-trip, punished me with the silent treatment and put his hands on her, cheating on me and discarding me for her, textbook narcissism at play.

The issues I had are all solved now so I figured, let's give her something like that, let her associate the "crap" with him and let his mask come off so she runs away!

But I can try the skull candle you suggested, altought it's not easy if you're with a Narcissist, I have seen the truth years ago and still tried to make things work, out of love.

Maybe she's less involved than me, she didn't grew up with him like I did so perhaps what you suggested is enough but, again, I don't know.

I don't wanna hurt this person I just wanna "push" her away from him for good.

Thank you for your help, as usual!
Thank you, St Michael.

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:34 pm

rossoporpora --

The topic of vengeance break-ups (without hurting the innocent party) is discussed here:

Break Up My Ex from His or Her Current Lover or Spouse
break-up-my-ex-from-his-or-her-current- ... 21991.html

Please read that thread and post there, now that you have gotten your head wrapped around the ethical issues.
catherine yronwode
teacher - author - LMCCo owner - HP and AIRR member - MISC pastor - forum admin

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Re: Ethics: Moral Justification Before God, "Black Magic," Karma

Unread post by Honeybeelight » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm

I just have a general question, although it's kinda involved and boils down to what's justified and what isn't.

I just had a reading from an AIRR reader, whom I have *every reason to trust*, that some serious work has been practiced against me by a woman who is connected to a sort-of-ex boyfriend of mine. I did a Reconciliation honey jar work on him. I did not do breakup work, a freezer spell, or anything coercive. The reader says she is in/or was in a committed relationship before I met him. I sort of doubt that part. I know that it's really unlikely that they were together when I met him or during the time when he was going after me, and in fact he mostly kept bitching about his ex-wife (who isn't involved). Maybe they had something going before and she considered him her property, I don't know, but if I'd had the least suspicion that he wasn't available, I would have dropped him like a hot potato. I flat out don't do that. She sure as hell ain't married to him. He's listed as single and looking on every damned site he's on, and she's gotta know about that.

Anyway, she probably found out about it, and there's a good chance she has my personal concerns because I sent a dressed letter with my menstrual blood. The other woman threw a hissy, went to a professional, and had a major curse laid on me. I do have every reason to think that's true, and as I said, I trust the reader. The reader also said that there wasn't any point in going after the professional, not to attempt a reversal, and to protect myself and cut my losses.

However:

1) I knew nothing about this, and had already decided that I wouldn't do any breakup work if someone else was involved.
2) I was working with another AIRR reader/rootworker whom I *also* have every reason to trust. There were no indications of another person or any barriers.
3) I was planning to cut my losses and do a Cut and Clear anyway.
4) A simple Separation or Breakup would have done the trick.

Nevertheless, she has attacked my health, my soul, my mental health, my house, and even my hair, when frankly I'm an innocent victim who got caught up in something and was probably lied to. I have no idea why someone would go after me hammer and tongs. I wasn't exactly a threat. I hadn't even slept with him. All she'd have to have done to get me to go away would have been to indicate that she existed.

Is that considered justified? If you try to crush someone when a pussy slap would do, is that morally and ethically just? Would that suggest I was more of a threat than I knew, i.e. he actually was in love with me? He said he wanted to move in with me, introduce me to all of his friends and take me everywhere. I didn't ask for him to move in and didn't want him to. I spent a lot of time trying to slow him down.

Also, if you do throw something heavy on someone who doesn't deserve it, what exactly happens? I'm sure they're protected. I know enough to know that karma doesn't exist where Hoodoo is concerned. Is it wrong of me to pray that the truth comes out? because if he knew a woman he was with practiced negative magic on anyone at all, she would be history. He's very spiritual and has strong feelings about that.

Anyway, I'm going to do exactly what the reader said. I don't shop for readers and I ain't dumb. I'm just wondering if it's justified and if it's not, does anything happen? Am I to blame if someone thinks they're "morally justified" to attack me?

The sad thing is that I'd already done a Cut and Clear when I had the reading down and was already feeling better, and this riled everything up again :( Oh, well. Off to do some Unjinxing and Protection work.
Thank you, St. Michael, for your protection.

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