Herbs and Roots LMCCo Doesn't Carry: Questions and Answers

J Simulcik · Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:35 am

I was reading an article on Victory Gardens from 1944 and thought how such an idea might apply to hoodoo. Victory Gardens were plots of private or public land used to grow vegetables and herbs in order to supplement national shortages. At their height, they were responsible for growing roughly 40% of the vegetables consumed in the U.S.

Anyway, I know that at least a few of the herbs we use are threatened or endangered, and to the general public they have no use as medicinal or aesthetic plants (though this is certainly not always the case). Pharmacies, candle shops, etc. are surely on the decline, and without shops like Lucky Mojo and people like Cat, larger portions of this knowledge would already be lost. Education will increase the demand for these products, which may keep them profitable to some companies, but I think more community-grown curios would be a good PLAN B, similar in idea to the small farms started in order to save naturally seeded banana trees.

For those of us capable and willing, what could be grown by the rootworker to either increase shops' supplies or for personal/community use?

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:10 pm

What a great question!

Most requested: Devil's Bit root. It's common Scabious! Easy to grow where there is summer water, not a great choice for those who must irrigate. I would buy the whole dried roots in quantity for the shop.

Second most requested: Poppy Flower petals. They must be the red Poppies, and well dried. We used to have a great source for these, but she quit growing them, so we had to discontinue carrying this valuable herb. Recently we found another source. Hurray.

Third most requested: Patchouli root: Used to be commercially available, but somehow along the way it went missing and then some joker began indiscriminately substituting Lemon Grass or Vetiver root for it (not even in the same family!!!), and that was the end of that. Not for sale anywhere in the world now, as far as i know.

There are others. If you are serious about growing, call the shop and ask to speak to me.

EcleckticMama · Unread post by **EcleckticMama** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:36 pm

This is a great idea. My husband and i have been dreaming about creating a magical garden when we get a house. choosing to include species that need to be saved could be an important part of the garden design.

J Simulcik · Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:41 am

I am serious about growing. I don't know on how large a scale, but my wife and have grown various things everywhere we've ever lived. Once I deploy back to the States, I will PCS to an as-yet-undetermined new fort though, so it might be a while before I have a place to garden again. I'll let you know when I'm settled!

Nezumi · Unread post by **Nezumi** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:16 pm

Does the species of poppy matter? Or only the colour red? Poppies grow beautifully in this climate, and I really love them, so drying the petals would not be a problem if it might help someone else out. Let me see if I can get a plot started - always glad for an excuse to garden!

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:36 am

Well, truth to tell, the Opium Poppies are the best, because they are the most ... confusing, as it were. Any Poppy should do, though -- but the petals must be Poppy-Red. I would love to get a source back; they are very popular, and we have had none in stock for about a year now.

chatocamacho · Unread post by **chatocamacho** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:29 am

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew where I vould get a whole Devil's Bit Root. I couldn't find it in the Lucky Mojo Curio Company.

EcleckticMama · Unread post by **EcleckticMama** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:44 am

I remember that as being one of the herbs miss cat recommended for "victory gardening" -- you can read about that here: hoodoo-%CA%B9victory%CA%B9-garden-t194.html -- for those interested, it's her most requested herb for which she has no grower and thus cannot carry in the shop.

Depending on where you live, it may be easier to grow them yourself from seed (or try a nursery this spring to see if they are offered with the perennials). Pincushion flower is a short-lived perennial, so it may be with annuals or perennials.

J Simulcik · Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:50 am

EDIT: Drat! Beaten again.

Sorry, I don't know where to find it. It was Miss Cat's most requested herb in the Hoodoo Victory Garden thread, here: hoodoo-%CA%B9victory%CA%B9-garden-t194.html

According to the USDA, it can be found in the wild in Massachusetts and Rhode Island in the U.S.

tisha · Unread post by **tisha** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:34 am

it is endangered here in massachusetts.

it likes acidic moist soil. i live on a lake surrounded by pine, oak, maple and birch.

i think i will find some seeds and encourage re-forestation (not quite right).

as it doesn't flower every year this plant has a hard time reproducing.

nasmaste.

snake · Unread post by **snake** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:56 pm

Oo! I have been trying to find some interesting and useful plants to grow in my garden. I'll try my hand at growing some of these. I have a friend with enormous amounts of poppies, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Morrigan_Aria · Unread post by **Morrigan_Aria** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:38 am

Hi all,

After several hours of scouring websites (I am a data analyst by day!), I have not located Devil's Bit root or Scabiosa, Succisa pratensis, for sale in root form.

That being said, I notice others have stated to grow it yourself.

Scabiosa is mostly native to the UK but UK sites cannot ship plant products like seeds to the USA due to USDA regulations...remember when you go through customs and they ask if you have plant products?

On the bright side, there are also US companies from which you can purchase seeds.

Happy gardening! I realise how lucky I am to have plenty of space for a garden, the hard part is keeping my horses from munching! It's harder than you think!

Well met,
Morrigan Aria

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:49 am

If Devil's Bit were for sale in whole root form in wholesale quantities, we would carry it at the Lucky Mojo Curio Co.

We grow many roots and herbs here ourselves and we contract with growers and wildcrafters throughout the nation to supply us with their regional specialties. However, as stated elsewhere in the forum, our climate, water availability, and soil conditions are not suitable for growing this plant on a large scale. Wild-crafting the plant is not sustainable, and despite our repeated requests to our regular plant sources, no one has yet come forth with an offer to contract-grow us a yearly supply of the whole, dried root.

We look forward to hearing from interested hobby and commercial growers who may be able to supply us with whole Devil's Bit root on an ongoing basis, as it is indeed the most-requested root for which we have no source.

Morrigan_Aria · Unread post by **Morrigan_Aria** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:26 pm

I live in a pretty agrarian, rural area here in Western Washington. I own some acreage but it's either forest or pasture.

However, we do have several co-ops in our area, and some farmers in this area might be willing to undertake this venture. With the weather and climate nearly identical to that of the UK, Devil's Bit ought to thrive here. I know a couple smallholders who grow custom crops on occasion.

I know the plant ought to bloom between July and October, and is hardy to -20F...my main question: how long before the root matures? Before I go asking local farmers to plant this, they will want to know days to harvest. Does anyone happen to know? As far as water requirements, I think we have that met...it is currently sunny and snowing as I type.

To LM: Should I be able to locate a willing grower, how much Devil's Bit root do you anticipate requiring annually? I certainly don't mind trying to facilitate this, but any answers I can have before I go asking would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:33 pm

Hi, Morrigan --

We have no idea how much Devil's Bit we could handle and this is a doubly unusual situation for us in that there is no known value structure to help us set the price per pound of whole roots. Also, since this is a flowering plant with a beautiful flower, i would prefer to contract with a florist's grower, who could have profit on both top and bottom of the plant and thus would not expect to make all of his or her profit off of my need for the root.

J Simulcik · Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:44 pm

In HHRM, Shame Brier is listed as Mimosa quadrivalvis or a number of the Schrankia L. Our nurseries here grow Mimosa pudica. What, if any, are the overlaps in hoodoo usage?

Thanks!

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:48 pm

As you already know, Mimosa pudica or Sensitive Plant is not Shame Brier or Shaming Judy. Shame Brier is a little scraggly ground-crawler native to the American South. Sensitive Plant is an ornamental bush native to Brazil.

However, despite the differences in plant size and point of origination, both Sensitive Plant and Shame Brier are related members of the Legume family with leaves that suddenly droop downward when they are touched.

It might be interesting to use Sensitive Plant as a substitute for Shame Brier, as it is a fairly common plant and the principle of action would be the same.

I've long considered making such a substitution myself, but i never gave it a try as it would require buying a Sensitive Plant for my property. Let us know how it works out for you. Maybe i'll try it too and we can report back on that to one another.

J Simulcik · Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:00 pm

Thanks, Miss Cat! I was wondering because I've seen Shame Brier before and it's "scraggly ground-crawler"-ness definitely gives it the shamed, low-down vibe even before it's drooping takes effect. The proud, more ornamental nature of M. pudica does kind of work against it, but as you say, the principle of action would be the same. It's at least worth further investigation.

celephais · Unread post by **celephais** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:41 pm

Is arnica ever used (and for what?) in hoodoo practice?
Thanks!

Turnsteel · Unread post by **Turnsteel** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:52 pm

Um, what kind of arnica?, Its a broad genius. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you meant Arnica montana which is the most well know plant form that genius. I don't think it has use in conjure but it might. Maybe under a different name.

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:59 pm

Arnica is not used magically in hoodoo but does see use in European-style folk-medicine.

The medical qualities of this product are described in this book, with traditional folkloric remedies for home-herbalists to try.

BOO-BOT-TAMB
This Amazing Book by Sunrae Products Company, ed. cat yronwode
$9.00

You can order right here in the Forum by clicking on the blue Add To Cart button.

For more information, see:
http://www.luckymojo.com/thisamazingbook.html

Amanda · Unread post by **Amanda** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:41 am

Cat - I'm reviving this old thread because it just occurred to me that you might want to contact a wholesale florist. That lists scabiosa in their inventory of flowers.

starsinthesky7 · Unread post by **starsinthesky7** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:43 am

What is the function of Hemlock in hoodoo?

J Simulcik · Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:26 am

I don't know of any, but if anyone does, you will probably have to differentiate between poison hemlock, water hemlock, and hemlock- the tree.

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:52 am

Poison Hemlock is an herb with well-known European symbolic associations, but it is not treated as such in American folk magic. It is not an ingredient in conjure hands or tonics.

jewelzdevone · Unread post by **jewelzdevone** » Mon May 04, 2009 5:49 pm

Ok, I'm curious and my books haven't arrived yet, so if I am asking a stupid question, please forgive my temporary ignorance.

What is the root used for? I can't find any info.

Jewelz

OH!!! Found it! Thanks.

jewelzdevone · Unread post by **jewelzdevone** » Sat May 09, 2009 2:54 pm

So, after reading the above posts, I became a little obsessed with trying to find Devil's Bit herb and I decided to grow it myself. But I am about to turn you onto one of my best resources for plants and herbs and I am hoping you will follow up because I think it could provide LM with a great resource for the hard to find items they can't get elsewhere.

The Veteran's Administration here in Los Angeles runs a 15 acre garden - all organic, where they use horticulture as a means to treat PTSD in veterans. The special thing about this garden that can help you is that they have an affinity for special projects. They have 2 huge greenhouses and they also do flower arrangements as well as have a bird sanctuary where dozens of rescued exotic birds are fed handmade organic food on a daily basis and live in cages larger than my apartment.

1 - They could make a profit off of both the root and the flower as they can use the flowers in their floral arrangements
2 - It would help vets learn to care for plants that are more suited to other zones (The garden is in Zone 10 - Devil's Bit only goes up to Zone 9)
3 - You could bring in a little extra revenue for the garden year round - They also grow the microgreens for the Playboy Mansion (so you don't have to be a vet to work with them) and sell them for a fraction of the cost when they could charge Mr. Heffner a fortune considering the amount of work they go through to grow them off the ground.

The Vet's Garden doesn't work for profit - it is funded by the Veteran's Administration for its basic operation - to provide a work-therapy and horticulture/pet therapy resource for the Veteran's Administration. All the money they make by selling their goods is spent on parties for the vets and Summer barbeques for the 2 dozen veterans who work there.

I went through their program and I learned so much. At one point they gave me my own 12' x 12' plot where I grew tomatoes, watermelons, string beans, eggplant and a whole bunch of herbs. It cost me absolutely nothing - they even gave me the seeds, fertilizer and all the water I desired. On top of that, but they gave me pounds and pounds of free produce just to take home for myself. Like I said - they aren't there for profit. Striking up a relationship with them could possibly prove to be ideal - otherwise I wouldn't suggest it.

Just a thought. I hope it helps.

Jewelz

nati1 · Unread post by **nati1** » Thu May 14, 2009 7:45 am

Good Morning everyone,

I'm at in the process of trying to locate Toloache, I looked it up in my HHRM book but found no reference to it. Is Toloache the same thing as Datura and Moonflower? and does LM carry this product in either power/root or oil form? This is what I found about Datura....Datura has been used to hex and to break hexes, to produce sleep and induce dreams, and for protection from evil (perhaps in the fire against fire sense). It has also been used for divination in Native American milieux, to find one's totem animal, for communing with birds, to allow one to see ghosts,
Daturas, much like its siblings belladonna, mandrake, and henbane, contain dangerous tropane alkaloids--atropine, hyoscyamine, and scopolamine. The flowers are extraordinarily beautiful and often have a very powerful, lily-like or lemony fragrance; people who sleep in the presence of the blooms can have intense nightmares caused by psychoactive properties of the flowers' scent.
Thank you for any comments and imput!!
Nati

Turnsteel · Unread post by **Turnsteel** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:33 am

I don't know of it, but if you want to know if LuckyMojo carries it, I would suggest looking in their catalog.

Lukianos · Unread post by **Lukianos** » Thu May 14, 2009 10:00 pm

Hi nati1,

nati1 wrote: I'm at in the process of trying to locate Toloache, I looked it up in my HHRM book but found no reference to it. Is Toloache the same thing as Datura and Moonflower? and does LM carry this product in either power/root or oil form?

Lucky Mojo does not carry Datura, nor Toloache (which often does contain Datura and/or similar ingredients).

jewelzdevone · Unread post by **jewelzdevone** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:57 pm

Good luck finding real Adam and Eve roots, they are endangered and quite rare and so aren't on the market, tho, some less then reputable shops will sell you something that they say is Adam and Eve root but its almost always, we're talking 99% of the time, some other herb. Now Hypothetically if you had two Adam and Eve roots you could tie them, if that's what you felt was right.

How do I know if it's real Adam and Eve root? I see many places selling them, but the "Adam" root looks like "balm of gilead". Is there a scientific name for the real root? I have access to a greenhouse and may be able to grow them myseelf (how magically appropriate would that be?). I'm having to do the same for Devil's Bit.

<3
J

Turnsteel · Unread post by **Turnsteel** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:07 pm

According to ms.cats lovely book Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic Aplectrum hyemale is the one usually ID'd as Adam and Eve root in America. And yeah a lot of places try and sell Balm of Gilead as Adam and Eve root, Its usually a bad deal because they mark them up and Balm of Gilead is not by any stretch expensive. If you can get some seeds and grow them good for you, I wouldn't have any use for them myself but I imagine you'd be the envy of many. But like I said they are quite rare so getting stock to grow may be just as difficult as getting the root/s for a spell.

I think growing them yourself,if you can, would be very appropriate, I grow a few of my own herbs and they are quite powerful, its the care and energy you put into raising the plant.

jewelzdevone · Unread post by **jewelzdevone** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:14 am

Thanks for the info. Actually, I just got 5 live bulbs/roots off for about 3 bucks per plant with shipping. I'm going to go ahead and grow one or two in my home just because they are so beautiful, but the others, I will cultivate for spellwork.

It's confusing, I had read in a different part of the LM site that the name for the root was Orchis Mascula:

(FROM THE LUCKY MOJO FREE SPELLS ARCHIVE: MAGIC SPELLS: TOOLS and MATERIALS used in SPELL-CASTING compiled from usenet, 1995 - present, by cat yronwode):

Adam and Eve root (also called Eve and Adam root in the
Southern USA) is the root of an orchid, Orchis mascula. You
should get two of tem in a pack, one Adam and one Eve. The
species is very closely related to lucky hand root (also
called salep or saloop or putty root orchid). It is
EXTREMELY RARE in the wild at this time and i have found no
reliable source for domestically grown or wildcrafted roots.

Orchis Mascula is actually the "Early Purple" variety of orchid - I didn't know if this was a magical conversion for purposes of Hoodoo. Though the roots do look remarkably similar to the "Adam and Eve Orchid".

It took me all day to figure this out - I'm a research fanatic. When I finally did try searching for the Aplectrum Hyemale, it was a lot easier to find than the Orchis Mascula. The roots of both look a lot like testes with one being dark and the other light (or at least this is what I see in the pictures).

<3
Jewelz

Turnsteel · Unread post by **Turnsteel** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:21 am

Awesome, good for you. Sorry if I gave you the wrong name, I may have spelled it wrong or have been looking at the wrong entry.

jewelzdevone · Unread post by **jewelzdevone** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:32 am

oh no, you gave me the right name, it was the other info that messed me up. Your smiley made me laugh! I guess that stuff doesn't come across in the forum format.

<3
J-

Exu pimenta · Unread post by **Exu pimenta** » Thu May 28, 2009 4:48 am

HI Cat,

I live in the Uk, and I actually bought some seeds of the Devil's Bit, and I'm growing some right now, once I get going I could always grow some here for you. I bought the seeds funnily enough from an American website. But I would be happy to grow them as i have some space. I'm also trying to grow Masterwort but thats more of a challenge. though oit grows wild here it can be mistaken as another poisonous varity of Umbillifer.

Hope that helps

Oliver

Omo-Yemoja
Filho de Exu Pimenta

Exu pimenta · Unread post by **Exu pimenta** » Thu May 28, 2009 5:05 am

Hi Cat,

I have alot of Opium Poppys in my garden they are really more a violet almost purple colour can they stilll be used? And would they be more for confusion or more for psychic opening?

Oliver

Omo-Yemoja
Filho de Exu Pimenta

SouthernGirl · Unread post by **SouthernGirl** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:37 am

I wasn't sure this is the appropriate place to put this, so please someone move it if need be.

Reading Miss Cat's book, I came across the grape entry. My question: Is muscadine wild grape? We have muscadines growing wild all over the place down here. Or is it another animal all together? I know vitis is the genus, but is the species that are included in "muscadines" the appropriate plant?

I'm very interested in identifying any local plants, roots, etc that may be used in hoodoo. Finding and collecting just seems more powerful to me. So any knowledge that can assist in that respect is my cup of tea.

Thanks

wylde · Unread post by **wylde** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:48 pm

I think I will attempt to see if any of these will grow down here in the gumbo that passes for dirt on the texas coast line.... will report back if theres any success.

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:23 pm

Yes, Muscadines are "wild grapes."

SouthernGirl · Unread post by **SouthernGirl** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:19 pm

Thank you. I was getting too specific I think in looking at individual varieties and wondering about cultivated vs. native.

Lucylookingskyward · Unread post by **Lucylookingskyward** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:13 pm

Hello, all! I'm new to the theory/practice of Hoodoo, and I was curious to know what those who were more experienced in these sorts of things would use Poison Ivy for?

wylde · Unread post by **wylde** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:06 am

Im new too but I didnt see it offered either for sale or in this online reference http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html some things are just better left alone...but if I hear of something I will post

loveliesbleeding · Unread post by **loveliesbleeding** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:47 pm

Hi,

I read about how hard it is to find real adam and eve roots and all the fakes going around. I found a packet of them and they come in a little colored paper envelope with english and spanish. This is the same company that also sells little amulets and charms in the same colored envelpopes. Any body seen these? Are these also fake or could they be the real deal?

What other herbs beside adam and eve would be a good addition to a love honey jar?

Thanks,
-kel

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:51 am

Fake. One Balm of Gilead Bud and one fat seed of some species or another.

The real ones are not just hard to find -- it is ILLEGAL to wild-craft them because they are an endangered species of rare orchid.

mysiclady · Unread post by **mysiclady** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:06 pm

Has anyone heard of this and how to implore its usage? Any spells on using it. Thanks!!

Miss Bri · Unread post by **Miss Bri** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:42 pm

Hi there,
Do you have the newest addition of Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic?
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html
Its available here and Cruel Man of the Woods has his own little entry!

take care,
Bri

Taylor_ · Unread post by **Taylor_** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:35 am

I haven't read the book.

Exactly what is "Cruel man Of the Woods"??

wylde · Unread post by **wylde** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:15 am

According to HHRM its a mushroom.

I love my copy of HHRM its one of 3 magical oriented herbal books I've collected in over 25 years of research (and over 70 books on herbalism) that I would recommend without hesitation, and in fact would heartily endorse if a testimonial were requested. If you don't have a copy its well worth the cover price and is signed in person by the lovely cat herself. Would that I had run across it much sooner in my travels.

It has extensive and multiple uses for herbs where indicated, as well as cross referencing of common names for them, next to impossible to find in herb books. It also has handy charts for quick reference if your looking for an herb for a certain predicament or situation which is a bit more common, but wonderful just the same.

This product gets 2 thumbs up and makes me wish I had another thumb to deliver lol....and I am going to post this over to testimonials as well I think for any who might be hesitant about purchasing this.

Lukianos · Unread post by **Lukianos** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:08 pm

Hi Lucylookingskyward,

Lucylookingskyward wrote:Hello, all! I'm new to the theory/practice of Hoodoo, and I was curious to know what those who were more experienced in these sorts of things would use Poison Ivy for?

While individual sensitivity might limit the practicality of harvesting it for use in oils or sachets, I can definitely see using poison ivy as a place to deploy a work meant to keep an enemy bound and in extreme discomfort--tying and burying the work in the roots of the poison ivy, specifically.

spinningredjet · Unread post by **spinningredjet** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:13 am

Somewhere I have a Hindu book which I am sure speaks very highly about taking the caul of black cats when they are giving birth. Does this come up in hoodoo? Seems like a more or less sustainable source for a potentially potent animal curio.

Turnsteel · Unread post by **Turnsteel** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:57 am

Nope, not at all. Black cat bones are said to e useful, but only a really monster would go about getting one. Just because it seems useful doesn't mean its hoodoo.

sweetie923 · Unread post by **sweetie923** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:08 am

My parents are Hindu, I had to ask them about this one. They tell me the reference to the black cat caul is definitely not in the literal sense, at least not in any recent times, if ever. And I agree, only a monster would go about getting one.

Turnsteel · Unread post by **Turnsteel** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:59 pm

Well, a caul could be gotten when the mama cat gives birth to kittens,if its the kind of caul I'm thinking of it won't really hurt anything. It usually comes out with the after-birth. As for the black cat bone, well I have one, gotten out of the cat in the old fashion way. I did not do it, nor ask for it, the bone is a few decades old and was one of a pair my teacher got when she was younger, and I got it as a gift a year back. I will say that it is very powerful but I would not tell anyone to actually kill a poor cat to get one.

Miss Bri · Unread post by **Miss Bri** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:17 pm

This is very interesting. The black cat is a powerful symbol, both for good and bad luck, and a human born with a caul is believed to have second-sight. I have never heard of these two ideas being combined in quite this way. And what would it mean? Does the new kitten with the caul need to be black, or does the mama cat need to be black? Well, its not hoodoo and not on topic for the forum, but it is very curious indeed!
Bri
(Who loves black cats and always has

spinningredjet · Unread post by **spinningredjet** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Well, obviously I was thinking the birthing process and overall cat's caul as at least somewhat more peaceably procurable, albeit slyly than even a chicken bone. I know the reference to looking for the opportunity is in a fairly recent source, a book on Rudraksha if I can find it. It wasn't very explanatory. I definitely think it is the mother cat that has to be black. I suppose one could breed Bombays. And of course, there probably is a law.

Chagrinedgirl · Unread post by **Chagrinedgirl** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:03 pm

I've never heard of any law regarding cat afterbirth. It's just medical waste if a cat whelps at a vet, and it doesn't involve any cruelty. Though you have a point, you'd have to find a pregnant black cat, or breed them.

catherineyronwode · Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:41 pm

Whoever said that it would be monstrous to collect the caul or amniotic sac of a cat is not familiar with kitty birthing. Unlike larger animals born by standing mothers (e.g. the horse, goat, or sheep), the caul does not always automatically rip open when the kitten comes out. If the caul is intact, the kitten claws its way out while the mother cat helps by licking it open, releasing the kitten. Normally the cat will eat the amniotic sac to clean up the nest. If the cat is friendly, you can help free the kitten by gently collecting the caul -- but be sure not to pull on the kitten's umbilical cord region as you do so. Be very gentle. There is no law concerning helping one's pets give birth, other than the usual laws against animal cruelty. I should think that for magical purposes, both the mother and the kitten would be black. This is not hoodoo, of course. As noted, it is Hindu folk magic.

Hoodoo tradition concerning cauls is two-fold. Being born with a caul gives the person thus born second sight or precognition. Also, in a belief that enteed hoodoo through contact with English sailors (many Freemen of Color, prior to the Emancipation, were sailors), it is said that a person born with a caul cannot drown at sea or in water anywhere -- and that possession of a caul not one's own is similarly protective, which gave rise to a monetary trade in cauls in England. So a kitten born with a caul would, in hoodoo terms, be second-sighted and safe from drowning.

spinningredjet · Unread post by **spinningredjet** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:40 am

catherineyronwode wrote:Whoever said that it would be monstrous to collect the caul or amniotic sac of a cat is not familiar with kitty birthing. Unlike larger animals born by standing mothers (e.g. the horse, goat, or sheep), the caul does not always automatically rip open when the kitten comes out. If the caul is intact, the kitten claws its way out while the mother cat helps by licking it open, releasing the kitten. Normally the cat will eat the amniotic sac to clean up the nest. If the cat is friendly, you can help free the kitten by gently collecting the caul -- but be sure not to pull on the kitten's umbilical cord region as you do so. Be very gentle. There is no law concerning helping one's pets give birth, other than the usual laws against animal cruelty. I should think that for magical purposes, both the mother and the kitten would be black. This is not hoodoo, of course. As noted, it is Hindu folk magic.

Hoodoo tradition concerning cauls is two-fold. Being born with a caul gives the person thus born second sight or precognition. Also, in a belief that enteed hoodoo through contact with English sailors (many Freemen of Color, prior to the Emancipation, were sailors), it is said that a person boarn with a caul cannot drown at sea or in water anywhere -- and that possession of a caul not one's own is similarly protective, which gave rise to a monetary trade in cauls in England. So a kitten born with a caul would, in hoodoo terms, be second-sighted and safe from drowning.

Hi Cat,

Thanks for the gentle touch on this process. I've worked with animals for years, at the Vet's, Museum-Native (Ohio) Live Collections, Bird Sanctuaries, but haven't been around much birthing. More around the other side, as to Euthanasia, which helps with those terrors(?) as well. I have had my own Black "Oscar" who very, very well may have been done in by the nasty neighbor, you know the one who used to hang the rodent glue traps in the trees in the garden to keep the squirrels away from the bird feeder. The vet told me that poisoning was unlikely, though robust he fell away only months after the man said he would "fuck him up" and my visit to the police precint to file a complaint. "Pray for those who despicably use us"? I think Oscar has been taking care of his own justice.

Now there is Louie, black and grey tabby and I've just adopted a fantastic 17 month old white and sand/cassia colored Amstaff/pitbull who came with the name of "Chase" and a heavily freckled red nose. Awesome spirit. Everyone loves him. 90% great in the dog run. At home its like Romper Room with an alligator.

Blessings

Miss Kerry · Unread post by **Miss Kerry** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:52 pm

Hi, I also live in the UK and this time of year Devil's bit grows wild and in abundance around where I live until late September. If Cat, so wishes I could harvest the roots when the times right and post them onto her at the shop.