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mamaambota2003
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Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by mamaambota2003 » Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:31 pm

Zevenstar, your name is as beautiful as your farm sounds! I'd love
to visit sometime when we are in Europe!

Speaking of names, I wanted to share a version of a Tarot Reading I
do. Actually, this was born in a Tarot Discussion chatroom with
another reader, when we were playing around with inventing new
readings.

I use three different decks. For everyday readings, I use either the
Morgan Greer or the Universal Waite. But for more "spiritual"
questions, I use a large major arcana deck of the BOTA cards. These
are fantastic cards, and I'm 4 years into a 13 year course on their
use. I thought I knew all there was to know about Tarot until I
started this course, and realized I knew nothing!

Anyway.. that aside...these cards have a Hebrew Letter corresponding
to each card. So... using the person's first name (or sometimes the
name they've taken as an adult) I spell out their name phonetically
in Hebrew with the cards. Then I read the layout.

This has been fantastic! In every single instance I've used it, the
person has exclaimed that it is right on the money!

Try it! I'd love to hear of other simple layouts people have success
with.

Ambota

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Valentina Burton
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Valentina Burton » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:40 pm

Susie, so sorry to hear you've been under the weather. I've really
enjoyed the few chats we've had on the phone when I've called to
place an order. You are so much fun! Get Well Soon!

Also, Adele mentioned dowsing to decide whether or not to accept a
client. what a terrific idea! What exactly do you do, Adele?
Holly Shuvhani

________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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wildwdswoman
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by wildwdswoman » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 am

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "hollybee" <hollybee@e...> wrote:
> >> Also, Adele mentioned dowsing to decide whether or not to accept a
> client. what a terrific idea! What exactly do you do, Adele?
> Holly Shuvhani


Hi Holly and all,
The dowsing is a recently aquired skill I picked up in the past year
and a half. I use it for everything! When I have my internal radar
blip w/ a potential client on the phone I grab a rod or my pendulum
and ask if I should consult this person. If the answer is no I ask a
few questions for clarification. Sometimes the timing isn't right but
I can work w/ them later, and sometimes it's a flat out no. A little
further dousing has revealed they would wreak havoc in my life in
some way. I also use it in conjunction w/ cards to get clarification
on a client's situation.
I think it's a great skill anyone can use. I use it an my garden all
the time. If I don't know what plant I'm looking @ and I have to move
it, I let the plant tell me where to go with it. They have all done
better than ever! It's also great for negotiating w/ Earth energies,
minimizing emfs, finding my car keys and wandering dogs. There is an
American Society of Dousers on the web. Just go there and find your
local chapter, they usually meet once a month. As a whole they are
very nice people who are thrilled to pass along information. A great
beginners book is "A Letter to Robin" avail through the site.
Now my question is to my fellow North Carolinian.Where are you?
I was thrilled you mentioned fire talking! Do you also do blood
stopping? I am wonering if this is distinctive to our region? The
first time I saw fire talked out was in SC but the lady was 1/2
Cherokee. Also I stumbled accross "rooted hoes" they do all their own
work. Does this tickle the back of anyone's memory.
Get well Susie!
Adele

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mamaambota2003
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by mamaambota2003 » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:49 pm

Re: Dowsing:

I'm so happy to hear someone mention Letter to Robin by Walt Woods.
You can pick this up online for under $3. I may even have extra
copies around her.

A very good resource that many people don't know about is the
American Society of Dowsers. They have chapters in most cities and
they are generally VERY happy to help newbies learn to dowse! In
Portland, Joe and I attend the Dowser's Convention every year! This
year, both of us were speakers. Each year, they have about a 3 day
program with speakers of various types. They have people out there
who will teach you hands on to dowse.

The equipment is cheap.. the best well finder I've ever met uses a
set of L rods made from inexpensive copper rod and his favorite
pendulum is a kid's marble superglued to a cotton string!! His name
is Mike Doney and he's got a wonderful self-published book out on his
experiences.

L-rods can be as simple as a bent wire clotheshanger. And many times
in the hospital I simply do finger dowsing with no tools at all.

If you're in the United States or Canada, look into the Dowsers.
Lots of older folks with a lot to teach! We need to glean that
knowledge before it's gone!

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zdubnoff
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by zdubnoff » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:50 pm

Hi Folks,

Letter to Robin is available online:


http://www.lettertorobin.org/RBN_html/R ... glish.html

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MadameSamantha
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by MadameSamantha » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:53 pm

Lawd, we have a mess of information going on here that brings back
so many memories of which I was introduced to as a child. I feel so
lucky to to be able to carry these old skills into my modern day
practice.

Chickens were always well respected in our family. The different
varieties/species usually had an assigned purpose. Frizzles with
talent were prized. Easter Egg Araucana's were loved for their
colored eggs of greens, blues and pinks. Chinese Silkies I always
loved to hold and pet. We raised other breeds as well, and we raised
other fowl.

Dowsing societies exist to this day and classes are offered here
through Communiversities. Usually it will include the use of
pendulums. I recommend reading the book, "Taming the Wild Pendulum"

I was always taught the Willow made the best water dowsing
stick/tool, as well as a weather gauge. I have seen coat hangers and
copper rods bent and shaped into dowsing rods as well.

The "Old Farmer's Almanac" book was/is purchased every year and
consulted for reasons well known to those who want to know more than
just when to plant crops. There have been advertisements for the
services of Hoodoo/Voodoo Workers, etc, in the back of the book. I
have already put my order in for the 2004 Southern Edition book,
2004 Gardening Calendar and my favorite, 2004 Herbs Calendar. The
Old Farmer's Almanac is on line now-a-days y'all!

-Mme Samantha

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Michelle bush
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:34 pm

Hiya samantha!
I'm enjoying reading about all the things that i
probably missed learning by a few generations :(

I'm SERIOUSLY interested in learning to make a good
pendulum out of a Queen Elizabeth root, I read about
it in the course and i'm wanting to make sure I do it
right... I just use a necklace for a pendulum right
now. Does anyone have a Pendulum like this???????
Hints??? Suggestions???
Sincerely,
~Deera

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MadameSamantha
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by MadameSamantha » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:13 pm

Hello Deera,

Did you mean you read about making a pendulum with Queen Elizabeth
Root in our Hoodoo Course? Where's that at? I must have been
interrupted and passed over it. I don't remember reading about that!

Respectfully,
Mme Samantha

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catherineyronwode
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:15 pm

Samantha Drown --

See "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic" page 160, in the entry for "Queen
Elizabeth Root." :-)

Helpful aunty (whaddaya mean you don't own the book?) yronwode :-)

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Zevenster
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Zevenster » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:32 pm

I use a dowsing methode I learned from a shaman.
Put your arms wide aside of your body, close your eyes and ground firmly.
Now put the question you want to dowse in your left hand (visualize). Weigh.
Now put the opposite of the question in your other hand. Weigh.
There you have it.
7*

(This resembles a technique i learned back in the 1980s under the term "muscle testing." -cat)

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Michelle bush
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:17 pm

Samantha,
I guess I should have clarified, I read about it in
the HHRM book during my studies, I just wondered if
anyone else has made one of these and if you have any
tips, ect.... No worries:):) you diddn't miss a
thing.. I just have a problem with my communication
skills (hehe)
respectfully
~Deera

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Michelle bush
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:17 pm

Hiya Cat,

I have the book, I just wanted to see if anyone else
was making one or had made one. SO as far as it says i
should just drill a hole in it , hang it by a red
thread and keep it in a red flanel bag and use it like
i would any pendulum. I have an Iris root but it has
been cut, I was thinking it wouldn't be appropriate
for a pendulum since it's had a piece hacked off of
it...whaddya think?
Thinkingly
~Deera

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catherineyronwode
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by catherineyronwode » Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:26 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, Deera Wolf <wolfwench@y...> wrote:
> > Hiya Cat,
>
> I have the book, I just wanted to see if anyone else
> was making one or had made one.

I have one.

> > SO as far as it says i
> should just drill a hole in it ,

Or cut a groove around the top end. or notches in which to jam the red
thread

> > hang it by a red
> thread and keep it in a red flanel bag and use it like
> i would any pendulum.

That's right. You establish your yes and your no and so forth, just as
is done with a metal pendulum, and use it the same way,. You can also
use it to dowse the sex of a baby in a pregnant woman's womb.

> > I have an Iris root but it has
> been cut, I was thinking it wouldn't be appropriate
> for a pendulum since it's had a piece hacked off of
> it...whaddya think?

Iris (Orris, Queen Elizabeth) roots (rhizomes) grow by division and
depending on the species and variety, you may dig up a whole one and
find it to be far latger than your outspread hand, with many "thumbs"
going off in different directtions. In working with these plants, you
break them at the narrow places (the "waists") and replant the portions
with green leaves so that they can multiply. So every one of them will
be broken, but not necessarily hacked off" -- and i leave it to you to
figure out what you have, since i can't see it over the internet. :-)

cat yronwode

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mamaambota2003
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by mamaambota2003 » Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:20 am

You can also
> > use it to dowse the sex of a baby in a pregnant woman's womb.
>

Ahhh... now for THIS my uncle used the woman's wedding ring on a
string. If she wasn't married, he used her earring (well, most
Portuguese and Italian women in our family wear gold hoops).

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belagile37
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by belagile37 » Sun Dec 21, 2003 9:54 am

In a message dated 21/12/2003 00:23:07, OakPsts@... writes:


> > Ahhh... now for THIS my uncle used the woman's wedding ring on a
> string.  If she wasn't married, he used her earring
>

*** Suspended on a length of her hair (instead of string) is what I was
taught...

-Jesse


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Quimbisero
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:50 pm

Here's a link that might be of interest to people, following the theme of the Amazulu...


http://www.wits.ac.za/izangoma/part2.asp



Eoghan

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AnkleBells
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:15 pm

Are you going to teach how to read bones?

(I will answer question about systems of divination, but not specifics
of each system. That would be the equivalent of another whole
series of lessons. --cat)

Once in a while I try to get an on line reading. I
try to find someone who I feel is good at it (in my opinion)
and there are so many people out there, it takes a while to
find someone who you personally connect with. Recently I
found someone who reads bones and I find the readings to be
the most accurate so far and I am very drawn to it. The woman
who reads the bones is having family difficulties right now
and does not have the energy to do readings at this time.
I don't know if this is the proper place to ask this but do
you know anyone who does readings with bones who you trust
who is able to be contacted on line through e-mail?

How do you personally feel about on line readings through
e-mail? Do you feel that people can really connect with
others this way? Sometimes I don't know how I really feel
about it.

Carla

(My opinion is that there are lot of fraudulent readers advertising online and also some really good readers. Some peple are gifted to read via telephone, others only face-to-face. Reading via email is equivalent to reading via letters. It can be done by those with gift to do it. But not all who claim such gifts really have them, so be careful and take time to get to know the readers and spiritual workers with whom you work. This elist is not a place where i provide links to readers. We have readers in this very elist, students in this course -- and some of them are excellent. --cat)

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Quimbisero
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:45 am

Ah, bones is a subject close to my heart.

There is a broad complex of divination throughout the Southern half of Africa (mainly
among Bantu speaking peoples) which among the peoples of the southern part of the
Congo, Angola, and Zambia are known with variations as Ngombo. Ngombo is the spirit of
divination in these traditions who, like Ifa among the Yorubans, is a specialist in
divination.

Bones, loosely called, are many things. I won't say much as I know Cat will soon be doing
her divination lesson, but bones run from a small number of items to a large complex
system of which only some pieces are actually bones. Some forms may not even be made
of bone, such as the most common form of Shona "Hakata" which are wood.

It is the divination system of Bantu Africa par excellance in its many forms. I know of no
one personally in the Continental US using any of these systems. They are not anything
like the systems i have seen presented in the two or three popular books (including one by
the "Illustrious" Buckland, I believe) published in English.

Eoghan

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mysticbrews
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by mysticbrews » Fri May 28, 2004 9:39 pm

Greetings Cat & Fellow Rootworkers,

I read a book, "HooDoo Mysteries" by Ray Malbrough, and he spoke of
a HooDoo divination system called "Fa". This divination system uses
4 (or 5) cowrie shells and it seems to be a combination of the
Dillogun and Obi divining techniques. Cat...Do you know anything
about this divination? When I went on-line, I could only find
reference to "Ifa" divination, which employs the dillogun. His book
is Louisiana HooDoo vs. the traditional style you're teaching. He
incorporates a large degree of Vodoun religious worship with
HooDoo. If I weren't taking your class, and I read his book for the
first time, I'd think HooDoo and Vodoun were interchangeable.

I went on the Lucky Mojo site and didn't see any info
concerning "Fa" divination, any insight anyone can provide would be
greatly appreciated...namaste, Stacey

(Ray Malbrough is pretty much a faker, in my opinion. He takes real information (including information from my web site and various books) and mixes his sources all together and then claims he is in possession of an old secret mystery that he is revealing. He is initiated in Seax Wicca (the creation of an old-time faker named Ray "Chant-O-Matics" Buckland) and Haitian Voodoo (under Mambo Racine) but he has almost no deep understanding of anything he has copied. Louisiana hoodoo is just the same as hoodoo in Georgia or Mississippi or Tennessee -- and that is the BEAUTY of it as a central African survival for hundreds of years! -- so unless you follow fake authorities like Ray Malbrough, whom you can choose to believe or choose to laugh at, there is no reason to to see a split between "Louisiana HooDoo" versus "traditional hoodoo" -- because hoodoos in Louisiana are just regular root workers, same as those in the Carolinas, Alabama, and Florida, same as in Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, and Philadelphia. They don't use a divination called Fa on account of this is just a phony concept that Malbrough grabbed from a book about West African Ifa and mixed up with other West African African ideas to make it look old and authentic and as if it had been hidden in secret in Lousiana. In other words, he is a liar. You ought to go to Lousiana and talk to some African American root workers. Read, study, learn, meet folks in the work, and in time you too will learn the depth of Ray Malbrough and his Llewelyn fake Voodoo-Hoodoo bull shit. Sorry to be so blunt or burst anyone's belief-bubble here, but the guy is a joke. I hereby award him the Herman Slater Hall of Shame Award for "Hoodoo Mysteries." --cat)

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AnkleBells
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Mon May 31, 2004 4:13 am

To Catherine,

I have been going through all the old lessons
looking for something I can't find. I thought
I read something in one of your lessons that
card reading was never considered a hobby.
Forgive me if you were not the one who said
that but I thought you were.

(Nope, i never said that. And i don't believe it, either. Must have been some other body. --cat)

If you did, the
reason I liked that quote which I feel may have
come from one of your lessons is that I think
people who do that kind of work in a serious
way do not consider it a hobby either. I feel
that way about writing poetry too. Where people
get the idea that writing poetry or any kind of
writing or doing divinatory readings like card
reading is fun or a hobby is beyond my
comprehension. It is kind of like being a runner,
I think. Once you get started, you get hooked
and can't stop and you are bound to it for some
unknown reason. In the case of being a runner, I
think the runners get hooked on the chemical
their brain produces when they run but I think the
pleasure for a runner is when the run is over and
they go home and know that they ran that day.
Perhaps it is the same for a card reader, writer
or poet. Perhaps the pleasure is when the job
is done...the article, the book or poem is complete...
until another project gets started...which eventually
is the case...

(Well, i know people who write poetry or paint or run or cook as a hobby. And i know professionals at the same things. I don;t know why you attributed this thought about no hobbies to me, but i never thought it. --cat)

Anyway, I think I remember you saying
in one of your lessons that in earlier times and in
certain cultures, a rootworker, shaman, healer or
card reader would be somehow taken care of within
the family so they would not have to worry about
being paid or earning a living because they would be
taken care of as they worked for the community.

(You have REALLY got me confused with some other writer. I never said that either, and don't believe it. --cat)

I get angry when people see rootwork or healing or card
reading or anyone of those things as a hobby or
leisurely activity.

(I don't, because to some folks it IS. I look at each situation for what it is and don't attempt to make up rules or regulations for ANYONE. --cat)

I don't think anyone who does
this kind of work in a serious way sees it as a hobby
or fun. Just the thought of it sometimes makes me tired
because of the work that goes into it. I don't know if
anyone can remember the part of the lesson where you
may have talked about that but if they do, let me know.

((Sorry, i have no idea who said that, i would not say it myself, i don't believe it to be true, and i expect that you heard it somewhere else and thought i had said it. --cat)

Just the thought of throwing an I-ching for myself and
asking one question is draining sometimes because I
know the mental energy that goes into it. Perhaps some
people do these things as a hobby but how do you
feel about it? Carla

(I feel that PLENTY of folks dabble in divination, including I Ching, tarot, astrology, and card reading, that plenty of folks make a hobby of magical spell craft -- and that other folks do these things professionally. It's like cooking. Most everyone can make a dinner for herself or her family, but not everyone is a professional chef. Sure, it takes effort -- but that doesn;t mean it must be PROFESSIONAL effort. Sorry if i sound cranky or contradictory here, but you have got me WAY, WAY wrong and i have no idea how, because it isn;t even as if i said something that could be misinterpreted -- i never really have mentioned the subject of hobbies much at all! I will write in a later lesson about the transactional nature or professional rootwork -- but even that is explained without reference to any "hobbies." --cat)

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Quimbisero
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:34 am

For the record, Fa is the name used for a system of divination among the Fon of Benin. If is
used in Haitian Voudou, but is there often used as a name for reading cards. It is closely
related to Ifa but not identical. To my knowledge, nothing akin to Fa has survived in North
America, largely I suspect, because it never arrived here. If it had, I assure you, Ray
Marlboro would not have been privy to its existance.

Eoghan

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Etudiant Ancetres
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Etudiant Ancetres » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:21 am

Cat,

I agree with you when you say to go to Louisanna. I haven't had the chance to do this yet, but I live in Southeast Texas, which is right by Louisanna (Lake Charles is only a 45 min. drive). At my job, many of the workers are from Louisanna and so they've told me stories (mostly about tricks and about people they knew who got tricked) and other things. Beliefs in Hoodoo and Voodoo are very strong in Louisanna. It seems to me that people refer to Hoodoo as Voodoo where I live. The stories are so interesting and the way they've been told to me by the speakers have been with a sincere air. Marc


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Etudiant Ancetres
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Etudiant Ancetres » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:21 am

Hi Everyone,

Now that we talk about divining as a hobby; that's what Palmistry is to me. I've started really studying Palmistry and I would always look at people's hands at my job (I worked in a Teleservices company which is the best place in my opinion to practice on people's hands). It's so interesting and revealing. I feel that now I have a better understanding of people because of observing their hands. Well, I know that this has nothing to do with Hoodoo, but I just wanted to put in my little piece. Marc


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mysticbrews
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by mysticbrews » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:22 am

You go Cat!!!! Thanks for the bluntness. Before spinning my wheels
any further to research this "Fa", I found the book to be somewhat
problematic because he's mixing so many, what I call "religious"
elements, with the conjure work. To someone that hasn't been
exposed to more authentic teaching, I found it to be very
misleading...especially when I got to the "Fa" divination section
because, believe it or not, he repeated 2 of the same pattern
combinations to have 2 different meanings. Obviously someone didn't
proof-read the book.

Thanks again...namaste, Mystique

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "mysticbrews" <mysticbrews@y...>
wrote:
> > Greetings Cat & Fellow Rootworkers,
>
> I read a book, "HooDoo Mysteries" by Ray Malbrough, and he spoke
of
> > a HooDoo divination system called "Fa". This divination system
uses
> > 4 (or 5) cowrie shells and it seems to be a combination of the
> Dillogun and Obi divining techniques. Cat...Do you know anything
> about this divination? When I went on-line, I could only find
> reference to "Ifa" divination, which employs the dillogun. His
book
> > is Louisiana HooDoo vs. the traditional style you're teaching. He
> incorporates a large degree of Vodoun religious worship with
> HooDoo. If I weren't taking your class, and I read his book for
the
> > first time, I'd think HooDoo and Vodoun were interchangeable.
>
> I went on the Lucky Mojo site and didn't see any info
> concerning "Fa" divination, any insight anyone can provide would
be
> > greatly appreciated...namaste, Stacey
>
> (Ray Malbrough is pretty much a faker, in my opinion. He takes
real information (including information from my web site and various
books) and mixes his sources all together and then claims he is in
possession of an old secret mystery that he is revealing. He is
initiated in Seax Wicca (the creation of an old-time faker named
Ray "Chant-O-Matics" Buckland) and Haitian Voodoo (under Mambo
Racine) but he has almost no deep understanding of anything he has
copied. Louisiana hoodoo is just the same as hoodoo in Georgia or
Mississippi or Tennessee -- and that is the BEAUTY of it as a
central African survival for hundreds of years! -- so unless you
follow fake authorities like Ray Malbrough, whom you can choose to
believe or choose to laugh at, there is no reason to to see a split
between "Louisiana HooDoo" versus "traditional hoodoo" -- because
hoodoos in Louisiana are just regular root workers, same as those in
the Carolinas, Alabama, and Florida, same as in Detroit, Chicago,
Oakland, and Philadelphia. They don't use a divination called Fa on
account of this is just a phony concept that Malbrough grabbed from
a book about West African Ifa and mixed up with other West African
African ideas to make it look old and authentic and as if it had
been hidden in secret in Lousiana. In other words, he is a liar. You
ought to go to Lousiana and talk to some African American root
workers. Read, study, learn, meet folks in the work, and in time you
too will learn the depth of Ray Malbrough and his Llewelyn fake
Voodoo-Hoodoo bull shit. Sorry to be so blunt or burst anyone's
belief-bubble here, but the guy is a joke. I hereby award him the
Herman Slater Hall of Shame Award for "Hoodoo Mysteries." --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:04 am

This post is directed to Catherine or anyone else
who cares to respond. I have been wanting to create
my own bone reading oracle but I read that the process
of acquiring bones is quite gruesome and certainly
not something a person would want to get into who
loves animals so I was wondering if anyone out there
knows of a bone oracle made from stones which someone
has carved into the shape of bones or know of someone
(an artisan?) who knows about what the bone oracle
is really all about and does not just have a surface
understanding of it who could make something like
this. Also, know any good books about it? Carla

(Possum bone, chicken bone, and sheep kncukle oracles utilize remnants from regular slaughter for food. Stone oracles are their own thing, not much like bone oracles, but i suppose you could commission an artisan to carve stone-bones for you.. --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:46 pm

Can you use chicken bones in a bones oracle?

(Yes. --cat)

Do you know where I could buy something like that...
a bones oracle that uses plain old chicken bones?

(No. --cat)

Also, does vulva oil smell nice like something which
could be used as a perfume?

(Yes. --cat)

Carla

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Quimbisero
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:46 pm

As Catherine said, stones are stones and bones are bones. I am not
personally a fan of "reinvented" oracles because I find them to be
rather gooey and new age myself.

I have, in the long term, a book planned on all sorts of specifically
Bantu divination systems and that of course includes bones. What most
don't realize is that apart from the Hakata system, which most
consider an amateur oracle, bones and related systems as used by the
Bantu throughout all of the southern half of Africa are quite complex.
In many, although not all cases, they also require possession as part
of the performance of the divination rituals and NONE are made without
blood sacrifice.

Malembe,

Eoghan

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Michelle bush
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:09 pm

Carla,

I have alot of bones.
They are really super easy to aquire around here.
Also, My friends know I like to collect bones so
everyone always gives me dead things. I probably have
a random assortment and could help you out if you need
them. My personal email is wolfwench@yahoo.com
Michelle



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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:34 am

It should be noted that most frequently in the Zulu (and closely
related people's) system of divination bone most specifically refers
to knuckle bones and not the long bones. That system specifically uses
a variety of knuckle bones of varying types of animals for example:
one of bok, one of antelope, one of female waterbuffalo, one of male,
etc. up to and including things as rare as elephant. Further, these
need to be acquired in specific contexts and situations. Then they
need to be buried ritually in a crossroads for a certain period of
time, etc. etc.

Malembe,

Eoghan

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Michelle bush
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:42 pm

Eoghan, in response to what you said here::::

"As Catherine said, stones are stones and bones are
bones. I am not
personally a fan of "reinvented" oracles because I
find them to be
rather gooey and new age myself."

I'd really love to hear about the raw bones of the
subject (pun intended)

Personally, I tend to try and keep a keen eye on what
I consider myself to be "gooey" and/or "new age". I
am known to send my own customers to local New Age
shops and Health food stores when they come to me
looking for that as I made a promise to myself to not
become Pagan-Mart, another "new age" feel-the-crystal
shop (no offense to any New-agers, but you know what I
mean...)

So...
In light of this, I have to ask the question. How do
we re-invent anything???

There is nothing new under the Sun as far as
Magio-traditions go. Not really.

If you are fortunate enough to be close with people
who are carrying a real living tradition then that's
great (for you) but for alot of people , especially
American people, these Magical traditions have for the
most part been lost all across the board.

It is easy to understand why some Religions are so
strong in certain parts of the country, these cultures
are for the most part still "living cultures". For the
more recent American Immigrants it simply HAS to be
easier for them to maintain thier own traditions and
that is a very good thing.

Where I believe it's not possible to totally
re-invent an "ancient" tradition and practice it as
the ancients did (whoever they may be)especially
without the information having been passed down
through the generations with initiations and all that,
as they were intended to be.

HOWEVER (the big however)
I must, especially as an American of mixed Native
blood, be open to the idea of the revival of beliefs
as we find them. Anyone here who has any degree of
Native ancestry can give me an Amen here. It's one
thing to risk being gooey, another thing to let
certain folkmagics Die completely. I'm all about
re-invention and acceptance of traditions that might
not be my own. IF I don't I'd simply have none.

The more I learn about my ancestry (to me, geneology
goes hand-n-hand with Hoodoo) the more I am faced with
the reality that I know nothing of my ancestors, and
that's pretty sad. The thing that is not-so-sad, is
that in paying closer attention to my own family and
community I have found that these things have not been
totally lost but have rather been "re-invented" as a
bizzare mix of Native magics since the frontier times.
For instance, the belief my Mixed-blood Cherokee
Grandma had about not pointing at vines (especially
pumpkin) or they won't grow, is probably connected to
the more ancient Cherokee belief of not fussing over
or bothering vines...

The problem is you have to know what you're looking
at when you see it.

So I humbly, as a Seeker of my own familial customs,
How do we re-invent and remain authentic?? I believe
this to be a very complex issue because even if it's
o.k. to re-invent in some instances and not others
then what separates the two groups?? Who decides??

~IN Hoodoo
Michelle "Deera" Presseau




-- Quimbisero <eballard@sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> > As Catherine said, stones are stones and bones are
> bones. I am not
> personally a fan of "reinvented" oracles because I
> find them to be
> rather gooey and new age myself.
>
> I have, in the long term, a book planned on all
> sorts of specifically
> Bantu divination systems and that of course includes
> bones. What most
> don't realize is that apart from the Hakata system,
> which most
> consider an amateur oracle, bones and related
> systems as used by the
> Bantu throughout all of the southern half of Africa
> are quite complex.
> In many, although not all cases, they also require
> possession as part
> of the performance of the divination rituals and
> NONE are made without
> blood sacrifice.
>
> Malembe,
>
> Eoghan
>
>
>




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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by cathy cappello » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:04 am

Does anyone know anything about these boards? Are they evil? Do they bring in evil spirits,etc.? Would you use them? Please let me know. Thank You Cathy

(The generic name for these boards is spirit boards or talking boards. They are used with a device called a planchette ("little table" in French) that in earlier versions was fitted out with a pencil as an aid to automatic writing, but in modern versions is set to glide over a pre-written alphabet and other brief words which can be used to spell out messages. Now, the logical part of me wants to say that they are not and cannot be evil, being only decorative pasteboard items made in the same Parker Brothers game factory where they make Parcheesi boards, but the truth is that when i was about 13 years old, my best friend and i used a Ouija board and contacted a spirit who called himself "Keel Set Low" (or "Keel Setlow" -- we tried to make sense of the name as if it described the buiding of a boat) and he scared the living crap out of us and i have *never* used one since. Other folks will no doubt tell you their own Ouija board stories, which may differ significantly from mine. --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by RedWill0w » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:42 pm

In a message dated 7/30/2004 3:39:09 AM Central Standard Time,
blue2dove@yahoo.com writes:

I can't stand them either, Cat. I also had a bad experience with one as a
kid, probably 11 or 12. I was home from school, sick in bed. When my brother
came in after school, he sat on my bed with me and we asked the board
questions. Over and over, the planchette flew across the board at me - launched
itself at me - actually hitting me with some force. We'd try centering it and
asking another question, and again it would fly across the board, aiming straight
at me. I accused my brother of moving it, but he protested his absolute
innocence, and I truly believed him; he seemed as weirded out by it as I was. I'd used a ouija board before, but after that time, I never did again. It didn't
precisely scare me, but who could like something that seemed to wish you ill?

When my mother moved out of the house that we'd grown up in, where she'd
lived for 40 years, my brother and I tackled the marathon job of sorting,
cleaning, and packing amazing quantities of stuff. We found that old ouija board in the attic, and I took pleasure in tossing it into the trash.

Dara

(And that, Dara, is why old and antique Ouija boards sell for such high prices on ebay! --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:44 pm

Now that we are on the subject...

I live on the east coast...in the MA/NH
area and wish there were someone who knows
someone who is respectable in the MA/NH area
or someone I could study spiritism with
(if that is the right word)on the internet.
I need a good teacher in this area. I think
everyone has there own areas of specialty.

If you don't have the right guidance and
teachers, you could get yourself into a lot
of trouble. I take care of my mental health
and am informed about such things. I know
that is a question people wonder about right
away. Its my spiritual health I need guidance
with. I am looking for good teachers through
the net or in the MA/NH area. There are so
many different ideas and opinions about the
subject too...To think it is "all in your head"
is foolishness...

Carla

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Taylor Baxter
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Taylor Baxter » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:51 pm

Regarding the safety of Ouija boards....I cannot speak from personal experience, except that I was trained in Umbanda to stay away from anything like a Ouija board. Everything I've read about them comes with warnings about how they attract lower level entities (Tricksters.) But I don't think it's that cut and dry. It seems to me that any entity easily enticed to a Ouija board has got to be dwelling pretty close to the earth plane -- in other words, pretty dense & heavy rather than having become more refined and ethereal. That means you're running the risk of any of the following: 1) Getting someone who doesn't know they're dead and is still hanging around. 2) Getting someone who knows they're dead but refuses to move on. 3) Getting someone or something that is simply not very advanced for some other reason and could be weird.

I don't think it's likely that someone inexperienced with this sort of thing will fortuitously make contact with an entity that has progressed to a level significantly beyond our experience of material reality -- you're more likely to contact something energetically more similar to yourself, who can therefore easily make contact with you. That leaves you with entities who may not have much of significance to offer you, which is perhaps something to consider if you're doing this to contact a Spirit Guide. Some people, however, will knowingly engage a less developed entity with the intention of cajoling and enslaving them. (Not something I would advise !) On the flip side, you could attract an entity that intends to cajole and entrap you, (siphoning off your energy), which is one of the big risks in dealing with Tricksters.

One of the problems with Ouija boards is that they sort of invite innocent people to play around without either properly preparing themselves, the board, or the room. It's kind of like having a party and throwing your doors open to who-ever wants to walk in off the street. The use of preparatory baths, followed by white candles & incense specific to your goals, as well as a ring of co-participants around you to hold the integrity of the space & your intention should help. If you're sensitive, remember: You're inviting something in. How good are your boundaries for keeping out what you don't want ? Can you differentiate ? - (Be both open AND selective ?) If you're not sensitive, playing around with a Ouija board will probably not result in anything at all. And if you are indeed sensitive, but are untrained in any of this, it probably means you cannot differentiate.

A Balinese friend once told me she and a friend of hers made a planchette out of a woven basket with pencil pierced thru the bottom weave. They were contacted by someone claiming to be Dutch (Bali was formerly a Dutch colony) who scared them to the point that they destroyed the planchette and never tried anything like that again.
Taylor

(I am also reminded of the story "Planchette" by the early 20th century novelist Jack London. It happenes to take place very near to where i live -- in the Valley of the Moon, east of Santa Rosa, California -- and it tells a cautionary tale of a group of people who invite spirits to talk with them via a planchette and ... well, let's just say it is a very instructive ssotry. Look it up if you are interested. It was originally published in a magazine, then collected in a book of London's short stories called "Moon Face." It is well worth reading. --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by cathy cappello » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:51 pm

Thank You for the information. I have only used the board once & nothing really happened for me. My friend has one & she swears by it. She says it has always told her good things & the information was accurate for her. I was thinking about getting one because of this but when I talked to other people about it & did some research on it I only heard negative stories. I just wanted to know why the experiences could very so drastically. Thanks Cathy

cathy cappello <blue2dove@yahoo.com> wrote:Does anyone know anything about these boards? Are they evil? Do they bring in evil spirits,etc.? Would you use them? Please let me know. Thank You Cathy

(The generic name for these boards is spirit boards or talking boards. They are used with a device called a planchette ("little table" in French) that in earlier versions was fitted out with a pencil as an aid to automatic writing, but in modern versions is set to glide over a pre-written alphabet and other brief words which can be used to spell out messages. Now, the logical part of me wants to say that they are not and cannot be evil, being only decorative pasteboard items made in the same Parker Brothers game factory where they make Parcheesi boards, but the truth is that when i was about 13 years old, my best friend and i used a Ouija board and contacted a spirit who called himself "Keel Set Low" (or "Keel Setlow" -- we tried to make sense of the name as if it described the buiding of a boat) and he scared the living crap out of us and i have *never* used one since. Other folks will no doubt tell you their own Ouija board stories, which may differ significantly from mine. --cat)


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Michelle bush
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:09 pm

Hiya!!!

I personally did use one as a very young child with
the permission of my Mom ( I know...) I don't have any
extraordinary "screaming oouija board" stories but I
can say I've had freaky paranormal happenings in that
house that could have been a by-product of A LOT of
factors.

I do now have, at my shop an antique Ouija that
belongs to my best friend. It's not for sale and is
for display only. It is a Zolars board, truthfully I
am very, VERY fond of it. I havent used it or any
ouija since i was a kid.

~Hoodooly
Michelle Presseau

> >





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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by cathy cappello » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:00 pm

Thank You for all of your help. I'm not going to try it because it sounds too dangerous for me to do. I was just curious because my friend uses it almost every night & she says it works for her. She's been asking it questions for me but I really didn't like the answers I was getting. Either they were confusing or just all out negative answers. Thank You Cathy

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Inominandum
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Inominandum » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:09 pm

Dear Cat,

I have been interested in bone reading for some time and your recent
lesson has onlt enticed me more. While I am familiar with some
methods of Mo from Tibet that use Bone Dice, I dont know any
particular systems from Hoodoo. I found an old book called "The
Oracle of the Bones" from the 80's. Are you familiar with this
product? Did it present an authentic system of divination?

Thanks.

Jason

(Sorry, that one must have slipped by me. Perhaps someone else can comment on it. --cat)

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Quimbisero
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:52 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "inominandum" <inominandum@g...> wrote:
> > I have been interested in bone reading for some time and ...
> I found an old book called "The Oracle of the Bones" from the 80's.
> Are you familiar with this product? Did it present an authentic
> system of divination?

No, it's fairly much a fabrication. It starts with the basics from a
legitimate system Hakata, of among other people, the Shona of Zimbabwe
and a bit of the astragaulis of the AmaZulu, but then the author seems
to feel that it was necessary to "improve" upon these. For me, that
always means that the text is a waste of time.

What you might want to do is look for a book on the religion of the
Bantu by Henri Alexandre Junod called "THe Life of a South African
Tribe." In this book he gives a very accurate description of
divination with the bones. Alternately, here are a few links that will
tell you more:

http://www.shikanda.net/african_religion/trans.htm
(a discussion of Hakata from an anthropological perspective)
http://www.shikanda.net/african_religion/techno.htm
(another by the same author offering some details of meanings)
http://www.afribilia.com/cgi-bin/perlsh ... bid37.html
(A source for grossly overpriced, but legitimate hakata)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... hakata.htm
(a page which presumes to give Hakata readings. Unfortunately, the
results are all vague, Psycho-babble with no resemblance to any
traditional useage but fun none the less)

There is a rather extensive complex of divination among Bantu speaking
peoples throughout the southern half of Africa. These systems have a
number of regional differences but a surprising systemic similarity
overall. The complexity ranges from fairly simple, as in the case of
Hakata, which give only about the range that the Yoruba seashells do,
to systems like the Astragaulis of the Amazulu and the Ngombo ya
Chisuka or divining basket of the Southern Congo/NW Angola, and
Western Zambia area which can have up to 200 separate pieces in them
and a potential for thousands of different meanings.

The bones referred to in Hoodoo, probably are an ancestor of the
modern Hakata system or of the Astragaulis, which have been used quite
extensively in the Southern half of Africa, and may have been anywhere
from four to twenty pieces. Probably knucklebones, maybe mixed with
shells and seeds and small horns or hoofs. These are not unrelated to
both Dice and Dominoes as divination systems.

Happy hunting.

Eoghan

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Read_G » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:59 pm

Is it a book and bone kit? If so, I have it.
Read

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by MissMichaele » Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:08 pm

OK, and here's mine. I bought a Ouija board for amusement when I was
about the same age, and my mother, sister and I played with it
occasionally. We NEVER got anybody/any*thing* coherent. The only
"spirit" I remember clearly was one who produced long strings of
numbers and letters that spelled nothing at all. I mean
2SB8M19NNZA7XOTWIIBP and like that. We finally decided on asking it
yes-or-no questions, and by this method it told us that it was a kelp
plant.

I mean honestly.

I've NEVER had any nasty spirits try to reach me through a Ouija
board. They tend to shy away from me when I go on visionary journeys,
too. I generally ask to see their ID, and they go poof. Maybe I taste
like garlic or something.

Michaele Maurer

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Mike Rock
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Mike Rock » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:02 pm

This is something I found on the internet -- I am quoting someone else here:

> > root workers in Louisiana use a divination system called "Fa"
> > which is almost-but-not-quite the same as the West African divination
> > system called Ifa,"

cultural note: "FA" is the Fon pronunciation related to "IFA" which is
the Yoruba pronunciation. Fon-Ewe does not like to start a word with a
vowel which is why you will in Fon say the name "GU" whereas in Yoruba
the same spirit will be called "OGUN", or in Fon you will see the name
"LEGBA" and in Yoruba you will see the name "ALEGBA" or "ELEGWA". FA is
a closely related divination system to what the Babalawos of the Yoruba
employ.. it employs palm nuts or kola nuts to create any of 16
different patterns that each has a traditional interpretation.

I had seen a newish book some years back at Half Price Books that had
translated all the interpretations etc into English, it was a scholarly
work and thick, but I can't find it on Amazon. No luck with Google
either. Bummer.

mike

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:18 pm

Mike Rock,

Most likely this suggestion comes from the existance of the African
Village, which is a post 60s socio-political-religious movement with
its roots in NYC. Fa has not survived, if indeed it could ever have
been said to have been practiced in the USA. I've certainly seen no
evidence of this -- credible or otherwise.

Eoghan

(I don't claim to know everything in the world, but the story of Fa
divination somehow surviving in Lousiana is not something i have
run across either, until hearing about it on the internet over that
past few years. --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by stevebu93 » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:11 pm

Hi cat,

I was wondering if you could point me to a reference where I
could find instructions for the 56-answer method of dice divination
for readings. So far I can only turn up the 18-answer variants.

Thanks a lot in advance.

(The 18-answer method uses three dice; the sum of the spots on all three dice being added to get your 18 results. The 56-answer method also uses three dice, but they are counted in sets of three, ignoring the sequence, so that 1-2-3 is the same as 3-2-1 or 2-1-3. This makes 56, and allows the results to be correlated to the 56 minor arcana of the tarot. Four-sided astragali (knucklebones) can also be thrown to get similar results. For a whole lot more on the math, see
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/Mintro.html#dice
and
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/D ... dice-chart
--cat, with thanks to siva for supplying the URLs)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by RedWill0w » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:18 pm

THE LUCKY MOJO HOODOO ROOTWORK RADIO HOUR

Hello all,
There is a correction to the show information for this week (due to our schuled co-host Mambo Angel being offline and working with the Red Cross in aid of Hurricane Katrina victims, as per her post earlier today. --cat)

Our friend and colleague Dr. Eoghan Ballard will present
DIVINATION: HISTORY AND TECHNIQUES IN AFRICA AND THE AMERICAS

Please join us for what promises to be a densely informative, fascinating
look at a topic dear to many of our hearts!

As always, your participation, questions and comments are appreciated.

For those of you new to the radio show,
you can listen to it in live, streaming audio
at drkioni.com or dial in on our phone bridge,
hear the audio live and also participate as
a caller during the call-in portion of the show.

Date: Wednesday, September 7, 2005

Subject:
DIVINATION: HISTORY AND TECHNIQUES IN AFRICA AND THE AMERICAS
with Dr. Eoghan Ballard


Start Time: 10:00 p.m. Eastern Std Time

Closing: 11:00 p.m. Eastern Std Time

Note: This is a call-in show and we look
forward to answering questions on
this topic at the half-hour point,
approximately 10:30 Eastern Std Time.

Dial-in Number: 1-858-300-3030 (San Diego, CA)

Participant Access Code: 53663







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by whirlygirl521 » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:48 am

> THE LUCKY MOJO HOODOO ROOTWORK RADIO HOUR
>
> Our friend and colleague Dr. Eoghan Ballard will present
> DIVINATION: HISTORY AND TECHNIQUES IN AFRICA AND THE AMERICAS

Thanks for a fascinating and informative show!

So, I started searching for photos and just found a resource on the
Metropolitan Museum of Art site, which has photos from an exhibition
of African objects of divination, "Art and Oracle," which ran from
April through July 2000.
The link is: http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/oracle/index.html

There are 8 categories of objects, including statuary.
The statuary link is:
http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/oracle/category1.html

Among the objects in the "Visual Commentaries: Sets of Divination
Signs" category, there is a Chokwe "ngombo ya cisuka" divination
basket system.
The link is: http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/oracle/figures23.html

The "Essays" section includes "Divination in Sub-Saharan Africa" by
Professor John Pemberton III, whom Eoghan may have mentioned (?) in
a previous show.

*CeeCee

(WOW! CeeVee, what great links! Thank you so much! --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:27 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "whirlygirl521" <radix@c...> wrote:

> > So, I started searching for photos and just found a resource on the
> Metropolitan Museum of Art site, which has photos from an exhibition
> of African objects of divination, "Art and Oracle," which ran from
> April through July 2000.
> The link is: http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/oracle/index.html


CeeCee,

Yes, I have mentioned Pemberton. He is a major player in contemporary
divination studies and an excellent writer. Those sites provide some
excellent information, too. You're sharp.

Eoghan

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:24 pm

If this was already mentioned or discussed, I did not see it. I don't remember if I did. I just saw a book called Zulu Bone Oracle by Ulufadu listed at Amazon. Has anyone read it or know anything about it? Just curious......Carla


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:05 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "anklebells800cows@..."
<anklebells800cows@...> wrote:
> >
>
>
> If this was already mentioned or discussed, I did not see it. I
don't remember if I did. I just saw a book called Zulu Bone Oracle by
Ulufadu listed at Amazon. Has anyone read it or know anything about
it? Just curious......Carla
> >


It's sort of the equivalent of a Llewellyn title on African
divination. If you want to hunt up a book, I'd recommend looking for
used copies of

Calloway, Rev. H Amatongo, or Ancestor worship, as it exists among the
AmaZulu Durban: Adams and Co, 1869.

Junod, H A. The Life of a South african Tribe (2 vols.) London, 1927.

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by AnkleBells » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:17 am

Someone on this list, I think it was Eoghan, said something not too long ago about putting together bone reading sets. He said it was going to take some research and time to do so...I just wanted to say that I want to hear more about that when the time comes...Carla


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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:16 am

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "anklebells800cows@..."
<anklebells800cows@...> wrote:
> >
> Someone on this list, I think it was Eoghan, said something not too
> long ago about putting together bone reading sets. He said it was
> going to take some research and time to do so...I just wanted to say
> that I want to hear more about that when the time comes...Carla

Yes, it was me. The research has mostly been completed, but there will
be a lot of writing and editing before the text is ready. Then I will
have to save up to buy a new band saw before I can begin producing sets.

Don't worry. I will let people know when they're available.

Eoghan Ballard

(Hey, Eoghan, are you familiar with the work of John Michael Greer? He is a traditional European Medievalist who has written two books on practical geomancy as derived through the 12 century Eurpoean craze for Arabic geomancy -- and who surprised me greatly at a lecture this past weekend by stating that he disagrees with currently promulgated academic beliefs that geomancy originated with the Arabs. Like you and i, he believes that "Africa is just filled with these binary divination systems" and that logically, therefore, the Arabs got Geomancy from Saharan or Sub-Saharan Africans. He has just signed up to be a student here in the HRCourse, so within a week, if you go to the complete student's table online, you will find his email addy. He is a really smart, hip, cool guy, a long-time collegaue of mine and Chris Warnock's, and just for the record, an Arch-Druid and a Freemason. He translates Latin, too, which is a useful talent. Anyway, he is currently my "go-to" guy on Geomancy, so i want you two to meet! I really hope you will hook up with him as your write this book of yours on African divination systems! --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:57 am

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, cat wrote:

> > (Hey, Eoghan, are you familiar with the work of John Michael Greer?
He is a traditional European Medievalist who has written two books on
practical geomancy as derived through the 12 century Eurpoean craze
for Arabic geomancy -- and who surprised me greatly at a lecture this
past weekend by stating that he disagrees with currently promulgated
academic beliefs that geomancy originated with the Arabs. Like you and
i, he believes that "Africa is just filled with these binary
divination systems" and that logically, therefore, the Arabs got
Geomancy from Saharan or Sub-Saharan Africans. He has just signed up
to be a student here in the HRCourse, so within a week, if you go to
the complete student's table online, you will find his email addy. He
is a really smart, hip, cool guy, a long-time collegaue of mine and
Chris Warnock's, and just for the record, an Arch-Druid and a
Freemason. He translates Latin, too, which is a useful talent. Anyway,
he is currently my "go-to" guy on Geomancy, so i want you two to meet!
I really hope you will hook up with him as your write this book of
yours on African divination systems! --cat)
> >

Thanks Cat. I am well aware of who John Michael Greer is. His work has
been quite impressive. I think his position that Geomantic divination
originated with Africans and was borrowed by the Arabs is an
interesting one. Not being overly involved with geomancy, I will not
claim to have any fixed views about its origins. Although I see some
justification in assuming that the mechanics of Ifa, for example, may
have Arab origins, I will not argue against the possibility that the
opposite is true.

What I am not at all convinced of is that the four bone system really
is geomancy. There are far too many variables and no real evidence
that any practitioners within historic times have viewed it as such.
Van Binsbergen can construct exceptional arguments for pretty much
anything he wishes to propose. His skill is impressive. That does not
mean that he is always correct in his assumptions, merely that his
skill at constructing intellectual arguments is awe inspiring.

Not all systems that happen to have four pieces are founded upon
geomantic principles. Even though the numbers will work out the same,
that doesn't mean that the system was intended to be mathematical. Put
another way, if it looks like a horse and smells like a horse, but
meows and licks its whiskers, is it really a horse?

I am none the less eager to chat with John. I can't imagine that I
won't learn some really useful things from any exchange.

Eoghan

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by John Michael Greer » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:12 pm

Cat, Eoghan, et al.,

Cat wrote:
> > He has just signed up to be a student
> here in the HRCourse, so within a week,
> if you go to the complete student's table
> nline, you will find his email addy.


Or you can get it off this email. ;-)

(Hey, you're here! Cool! --cat)

Eoghan wrote:
> > What I am not at all convinced of
> is that the four bone system really
> is geomancy. There are far too many
> variables and no real evidence
> that any practitioners within historic
> times have viewed it as such.

Nah, nah, that's not at all what I'm suggesting. What I propose is that
geomancy is one of many divination systems belonging to the same large
family of four-digit binary divination systems, of which the four bone
system is another example. That family of systems most likely originated in sub-Saharan Africa, because that's where nearly all the examples are found, and those that aren't -- geomancy is an example -- first surfaced in places with close ties to sub-Saharan Africa.

It's the same sort of logic linguists use: the region that contains the
most diverse variants of a language family is likely to have had that
language family longest.

(Same idea with DNA research: The geographical area with the most diverse DNA variations for a given species is typically the oriigination point for that species -- which is why DNA research (in addition to arhcaological evidence) points to Africa as the origination point for human beings. --cat)

If geomancy was really Arab in origin, I'd expect to see a large number of related systems in the Middle East, a few of which were exported to Africa.

Instead, there's one such system in the Middle East -- geomancy -- and dozens in sub-Saharan Africa, ranging from very simple oracles up to the immense complexity of Ifa.

Mind you, geomancy certainly went through a lot of changes on its way
across the Sahara, not to mention later on, and so it's an idiosyncratic and rather distinctive member of the family. It also got reimported to Africa with classical Muslim culture, of course, and then re-hybridized with local traditions to create new forms such as the Malagasy oracle of Sikidy. (Such things happen in the history of ideas tolerably often.) So of course the bone oracle isn't geomancy -- that would be like saying that English is the same language as Sanskrit! Rather, they're related, and their ancestors probably came from the same part of the world.

(Thanks for clarifying. Also, just a note for those interested in geomancy -- check out John's web site
http://collegeofgeomancy.com
-- where the first lesson of his course is available for FREE. --cat)

BTW, greetings to all -- I'm new to the course and, to a large extent,
to trad hoodoo as well, and I look forward to learning from all.

With my best,

John Michael Greer

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Quimbisero » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:53 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, John Michael Greer <threelynx@...> wrote:
> >
> Cat, Eoghan, et al.,
...
> > Nah, nah, that's not at all what I'm suggesting. What I propose is
that geomancy is one of many divination systems belonging to the same
large family of four-digit binary divination systems, of which the
four bone system is another example. That family of systems most
likely originated in sub-Saharan Africa, because that's where nearly
all the examples are found, and those that aren't -- geomancy is an
example -- first surfaced in places with close ties to sub-Saharan
Africa.
(lots of interesting stuff cut here)

> > Mind you, geomancy certainly went through a lot of changes on its way
> across the Sahara, not to mention later on, and so it's an
idiosyncratic and rather distinctive member of the family. It also
got reimported to Africa with classical Muslim culture, of course, and
then re-hybridized with local traditions to create new forms such as
the Malagasy oracle of Sikidy. (Such things happen in the history of
ideas tolerably often.) So of course the bone oracle isn't geomancy --
that would be like saying that English is the same language as
Sanskrit! Rather, they're related, and their ancestors probably came
from the same part of the world.
> >


John,

Nice to hear from you here and thanks for the response. I want to
clarify that I was not referring to you for the most part in reference
to the four tablet bone system. Rather, I had in mind Wim Van
Binsbergen's writing about it. I have no doubt that there was
exchange, and influence in both directions. Van Binsbergen is very
concerned with issues of transculturation and especially
globalization. I believe, rather - it is obvious that he is using the
four bone system, in it's most simplified form, as a platform for
arguing some of his theories about this in an African context.

The problem is that the complex of which the four bone system is a
part is far more diverse than the subset he uses. In many places the
practice uses more than four pieces, sometimes as many as forty or
more objects, or multiples of the four pieces, and there appears to be
no consistency in the number of signs derived from the four pieces.
Sometimes they demonstrate a mathematically logical set based upon
multiples of four, but sometimes they do not. What he has done is to
assemble the examples that support his theories and ignore the rest.

I don't have any problems with where he is going with his theories of
cultural expansion, either. In fact, a lot of it is really
fascinating. I'd encourage you to read his essays if you haven't
already. It's just that I think his conclusion that the four bone
system is categorically an example of geomancy is misleading. I don't
doubt it will lead many in the west who are unaware of the subtleties
and diversity within that complex of divination systems to make some
very inaccurate and simplistic equations.

By the way, he draws some equations between Asian practices and
Southern African practice that are worthy of further examination. I
tend to think that the path of diffusion seems more likely to have
traveled out of Africa rather than the other way around. It becomes
easy to see how, when Arab influences (and possibly Asian ones) return
to Africa that the African origins of some of these practices may be
less obvious over time. Your observation that ties diversity of
practice to an earlier origin is a fascinating one; one that seems
very logical to me.

For anyone interested in looking at the material I referred to, Van
Binsbergen has a very extensive site: http://www.shikanda.net/
I'm glad to see you here and hope you enjoy this wonderful realm of
cat's.

All the best,

Eoghan

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by spiritwitchconjure » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:15 am

How does one determine if there is a curse/hex/rootwork that has been
placed against a person? Is there a special rootworking way to detect
that sort of thing? I'm not sure how to describe it and if I'm being to
broad I apologize.

(See some ideas on that at the web page on Uncrossing --
http://www.luckymojo.com/uncrossing.html
but if a divination on the issue is required, then any of the usual divination methods described in HRCC Lesson 49 may be used. One of my students, Chris Warnock, has successfully combined horary astrology with hoodoo and will answer this question for clients for a modest fee, --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Steven Engel » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:00 pm

Hi, I just wanted to respond to this myself. I had a horary done by
Chris regarding whether or not I was under a curse. Not only was he
able to reveal to me through the horary analysis that I was indeed
suffering the effects of a curse, but, who the actual individual was
who was responsible for it.

When I found this out, I did a reversing type of spell simply to
send back the curse that had been sent to me. Sadly (or not depending
on your point of view), this person died soon after.

Oh well, he got exactly what he deserved. Apparently, he was trying
to kill me. Through mutual acquaintences, I found out later that he
had been slandering and saying VERY hateful things about me behind my
back (something I was surprised to find out about, I thought we were
on good terms), and, he had even mentioned in passing (to them) that
he had "plans" for me. I guess I know what his plans were!

Oh well,

Steven J Engel (#972)

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Lee Canipe
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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Lee Canipe » Wed May 14, 2008 12:11 pm

Hey Christiane,

I've been reading Tarot for years and it's accuracy never ceases to amaze
me. I've tried learning to read with regular playing cards, as that's more
traditional, but all that memorization is too much for me! Here are a few
pointers:

1) remember, the Tarot is a tool. The information is coming from the
Spirits and they are using the Tarot to communicate, don't get so caught up in
trying to memorize the meanings of cards that you lose the connection with the
Spirits.

2) when first learning the Tarot take a card and just look at it. Listen
to what the Spirits are telling you about this card. Then check the book or
pamphlet to see what that says. If the information is copasetic you are more
likely to remember that which first came to you from the Spirit and use that
as part of your own personal information about that card. If the information
is way off (which happens sometimes when you're first starting out), try to
figure out why the Spirit gave you the information he/she did and how it may
be related to the actual meaning of the card.

3) keep it simple. I agree 100% with Cat about not using Jungian,
Crowleyan, or psychological interpretations. Hoodoo comes from country folks who
were practical and no nonsense. Approach the cards in a more straightforward
and "face value" way.

4) practice, practice, practice

I hope this helps, and if you feel that the spirits want you to do tarot,
keep at it!

Lee Canipe (# 398, G)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by MissMichaele » Wed May 14, 2008 2:38 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, Leecanipe@... wrote:

> >2) when first learning the Tarot take a card and just look at it.
Listen to
> >what the Spirits are telling you about this card. Then check the
book or
> >pamphlet to see what that says.

The problem with memorizing meanings - even Waite's - is that they are
dependent on context - the other cards in the spread, what the client
tells you, etc.

When I was learning the Tarot, I started with the good old Rider-Waite
deck; at least some of the meaning is apparent just from the pictures
alone. When I was beginning to make *some* headway in memorization, I
hit on the notion of pulling a single card each day and studying only
that card.

After about a month, that single card began to be predictive of how my
day would go. That in itself will teach you much.

Michaele Maurer (G)
#361

(I agree with you and others who have mentioned that mere rote book-larnin' will not suffice. I call the synthesis of symbolic ideas presented in context the "coherent narrative" or the "through-story" and the same principles used in tarot apply in constructing the coherent narrative when doing tea-leaf reading, astrology, and other forms of divination that are not limited to yes/no replies from Spirit. The ability to blend, weave, or coherently narrate the through-story of the client's future, based upon marker-sybols provided by the divination-system itself, is what sets good readers of all types apart from rote or "book" readers. --cat)

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by chriswar7 » Fri May 16, 2008 7:35 pm

(I agree with you and others who have mentioned that mere rote
book-larnin' will not suffice. I call the synthesis of symbolic ideas
presented in context the "coherent narrative" or the "through-story"
and the same principles used in tarot apply in constructing the
coherent narrative when doing tea-leaf reading, astrology, and other
forms of divination that are not limited to yes/no replies from
Spirit. The ability to blend, weave, or coherently narrate the
through-story of the client's future, based upon marker-sybols
provided by the divination-system itself, is what sets good readers of
all types apart from rote or "book" readers. --cat)

Exactly Cat! I completely agree with you on the importance of
synthesis, "building up" rather than analysis "breaking down".
Analysis in divination a necessary first step, I think, to learning.
You need to take out a tarot deck and start learning each card
separately or in astrology start learning things like the names of the
planets and Zodiac signs.

But these are really just baby steps. I had someone call me off of
the Lucky Mojo referral list, (thanks cat!) and ask me "what does the
High Priestess card mean in a relationship question?" I don't have
the foggiest idea! I don't know the relationship and its history, I
don't know the spread, I don't know the other cards in the spread.
This is like someone asking me, "What does the Moon in the 1st house
mean?" It means 15 different things depending on context.

The meaning in divination comes not from the individual units, be they
tarot cards or astrological factors like planets, houses and aspects,
but the interconnections and overall patterning that the individual
units make. Which is more meaningful and evocative an explanation of
beauty, the definition, "a combination of qualities that delights the
aesthetic senses"

or Shakespeare?

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd;
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
So long lives this and this gives life to thee.

Divination, like poetry builds up meaning and, is in fact, more
precise, through the interconnection and juxtaposition of individual
parts. The pattern, not the parts, is what is most important.

In addition, context is key. What the situation that we are dealing
with? The same somewhat negative indication is going to play out
differently depending on the situation. "Will I have a relationship
with a celebrity I've never met?" Negative is going to be a no since
this is pretty much impossible. "Will I marry X, who I just met?"
again negative is likely to be a no. "Will I divorce after 25 years of
marriage?" Negative may well mean just some difficult times. "Our
marriage date is set for next month, nothing's happening but I am
feeling paranoid, will we get married?" Negative may just mean you
are worried or problems with the caterer.

Still, practice really helps! Learn the basics and then start doing
it in practice. It also helps to do other people's questions because
it is a lot easier to be objective. It's hard enough saying no to
others without trying to judge questions that are vitally important to
you.

Christopher Warnock
HR Course Student #10(G)
Renaissance Astrology &
Astrological Magic
chriswarnock@renaissanceastrology.com
Renaissance Astrology Website
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com

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Re: Lesson 49 Divination

Unread post by Michelle bush » Sat May 17, 2008 7:47 am

Christopher Warnock wrote:::
> >
> Still, practice really helps! Learn the basics and
> then start doing
> it in practice. It also helps to do other people's
> questions because
> it is a lot easier to be objective. It's hard enough
> saying no to
> others without trying to judge questions that are
> vitally important to
> you.
>

Hi Chris:)
I totally see your point here, it's so much easier
for me to do "right on" readings for strangers because
I have no knowledge o them or their situations which
helps me not color the reading with what i already
know about them and how i "think" it applies. Still, i
always try and read exactly what the card says, is and
is telling me no matter what. This past fall i had a
really cool gig doing readings out of a very neat
wagon... I was offering them at a VERY low price,
basically $1 per card (i used a 5, 10, or 15 card
spread....with the option to keep going thrrough the
entire deck) I advised each client beforehand that if
the firt cards diddn't "click" with them they diddn't
have to pay and i'd abandon the reading...well,
suffice it to say that never happenend, I had alot of
fun and made a KILLING mostly off horseshoe $5
readings.
It's amazing to me also how much people tell you once
the cards start falling, I had alot of readings turn
into mini "therapy" sessions, which at the time was
really odd because i was having quite alot of troubles
myself at the time which I was thankully able the
leave outside the wagon :)
I had many repeat clients and discovered I had a
better understanding and gift for card reading than i
realized and learned SO MUCH from the whole
experience. There were alot of times that i simply let
the cards talk to me and after doing so many I got to
know them better, like people with their different
personalities. I agree, the more you use the cards the
more you get to know them, the better they speak to
you. I also learned that doing so many readings i a
row is not only emotionally draining but physically.
The greatest rewards were the people who contacted me
months later to tell me that what i told them came to
pass.
~regards
Michelle Presseau #55 G

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