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Santisima Muerte Santa Muerte Holy Death Spiritual Supplies

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Santisima Muerte

Unread postby csrs » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:06 pm

I was wondering just have powerful is the Santisma Muerte in have a lost lover returned and would setting vigil lights in runs with a rootworker be enough for her to work on your behave. How does one know if she wants to work with me or is working on my behalf any signs she put out?

Thanks
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby Devi Spring » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:31 pm

Santisma Muerte is a very powerful spirit, and she doesn't work with everyone. I've learned from very experienced workers that using death spirits for love can result in very complicated and sometimes obsessive relationships following, so do be prepared that that may be the outcome. If you don't want to work with her directly, then you may want to consider going about your petition in a different manner. BUT if you really want to, then you could certainly look into hiring someone to work her on your behalf.

If you want to know if she will work with her, you could light a candle to her and pray that she show you a sign as to her willingness to work for you. You could also have a reader that works with her to a reading on that matter for you. If she will work for you, then you might as well just work with her directly.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:52 am

I have heard that Santisma Muerte (from someone that works with her) that she is a very demanding spirit, and a jealous spirit. So if you are working with other saints...you must keep her totally separate and away from other saints you are working with. I agree with everything that Devi has said which is great advice. However, you need to be prepared to not only be devoted to her, but you need to be very serious about repaying her. She is not a saint you can be lazy with, and if you do not see yourself repaying her promptly, then do yourself a favor and not work with her. I have never worked with her since i have seen great results with the intranquil spirit however I have heard once you petition her you have to be devoted to her or she will turn on you, so you cannot be lazy, and you cannot keep up your promise you have made to her.

And I know some people on here are going to think "yay a strong kickass spirit to work with to bring back my lover" Make sure you are equipped and prepared to work with Muerte aka death. So good luck.

http://www.luckymojo.com/santisimamuerte.html
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby csrs » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:26 am

To light a candle for Santisima Muerte would it be purple colored?
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:51 am

Yes it is purple, but i have also seen it in red. Personally, I feel like with this being a demanding spirit you might want to actually do some research and actually read the info page from lucky mojo amongst other things.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby kmew1315 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:56 am

If I'm understanding said page correctly, you have to burn a candle to her every Tuesday at midnight indefinitely or she will take back what she gave you. Something to think about there.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby Devi Spring » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:10 am

It depends on the manda (vow) that you make to her when you present your petition to her.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby csrs » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:49 pm

Well, I started yesterday burning a red candle for her. I guess that would fall under Tuesday as well the only thing is that it was lite before, no? I have heard she is really powerful and good at granting your petition since my case is so difficult I have hope that she will help me out on the reconciliation aspect of my problem along with other things being done.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:14 pm

Did you not even read the previous posts? She is only good if she WANTS to work with you. She does not HAVE to work with you. So there may still be a possibility that she might not even grant your requests. Good luck.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby Devi Spring » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:18 pm

Santisima Muerte is definitely one of those spirits that I feel that one should not petition lightly, and only after having educated themselves very thoroughly on how properly to work with her, what to expect, etc. There are resources available by those who have studied and practiced curanderismo (Mexican folk Catholic magic and healing) that provide nice background info on her, as well as outline some basic ways to work with her - availing oneself of those is a good idea, or at the very least trying to find a practitioner experienced in working with her who can guide you through the dos and don'ts.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:36 pm

Thank you Devi for stating this. I feel like Lucky mojo should put a disclaimer on this candle or something because this is definitely a demanding spirit, and should not be taken lightly.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby ConjureMan Ali » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:21 pm

If you are seeking to bring back a lost lover you can work with a dozen of other products and conjures to acheive the result you want. You can work with Restless products, the Intranquil Spirit (a relatively difficult spirit to work with, but much less demanding then Santisima Muerte), you can petition Saint Martha to dominate and bring that person back (she is actually very helpful and kind towards those who petition her with a sincere heart), you can work a Come to Me conjure, you can do dream work, a moving lodestone etc etc. All of these would be much easier to work with. Unless a rootworker who knows what they are doing is willing to perform this work for you, I recommend that you stay away from it until you know what you are doing. The choice is ultimately yours, but please do your research.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby Mama Micki » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:00 pm

I cannot imagine that any lover would be worth risking the anger of a spirit of death.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:51 am

I TOTALLY agree.
Thank u St. Martha for everything you have done on my behalf.
Thank u St. Elena! I appreciate your great help.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby kmew1315 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:18 am

Mama Micki wrote:I cannot imagine that any lover would be worth risking the anger of a spirit of death.


Well, I might be, but I don't think I know anybody posting in this thread. :lol:
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Saint Muerte and dreams

Unread postby dianna » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:18 am

Today is the 8-th day, I just woke up from a really strange dream and I don't know what to make of all of this.Im working with St Muerte for brining back my ex, I am determined to have him around me again . Since I've started the novena, almost everynight I dream about him( before working with the St I had little dreams about him )..well last night in my dream we reconciled and after that I just ran outside and told my friend that St Muerte helped me to reconcile. :lol: Well I don't know if it's St Muerte's work here or my mind is playing tricks. Is it a good sign or a bad sign?Is it because Im thinking about him or because something is really happening?I remember I asked St to dream about him ...

Of course when I woke up ..reality kicked me in the face .. :roll:
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Re: Saint Muerte and dreams

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:54 am

Signs are one of those things that are personal to the petitioner. Sometimes dreams are just about everyday occurrences in our lives, and are personal to the dreamer as well. In this instance, it could mean two things....St Muerte is communicating to you about your work, and/or you are feeling the effects of what your target is feeling. I know with the intranquil that may people often report feeling very intranquil themselves and feeling overcome need to be with the target. So this might be a cause of that. Now is it a good sign or bad sign, I dont see it as a bad sign, but I mean thats personal to you, and I see that you see it as a good sign so thats all that matters.

Is it because you are thinking about him or is something happening...well thats something you should get a reading done on. I mean if you asked the saint to dream about him then they are granting your request, but I would get a reading on this to get some clarification. I think it would be more advantageous to have the saint muerte to have him dream about you instead.

Good luck with the continuing of your work.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:31 am

LOL i didnt see this before. Thats too funny ;)
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Re: Saint Muerte and dreams

Unread postby dianna » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:48 am

Also another thing..I put the candle on a picture with him . As day passed by I noticed the picture turned blue. The picture was all colorfull when I started. This is definetly strange and I can't explain it .
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Re: Saint Muerte and dreams

Unread postby Devi Spring » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:12 am

Get a reading. The photo likely changed color from contact with condition oils, heat, etc.
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Re: Saint Muerte and dreams

Unread postby dianna » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:09 am

2 readings...Anyway..I hope for the best
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby Mama Micki » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:44 pm

Yes, I know how people are. They think that they will die if they don't have the love of a particular person. Wrong. There are six billion people on this planet, pretty much evenly divided by gender. It is unlikely that there is only one person who can fulfill your requirements; there are probably thousands, if not millions who can do so if given the chance.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby IBMagnet » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:01 pm

i am glad that you guys are debating this. As i was lucky with intranquil spirit, i thought i would up it a bit with santissima. it was mere tempation of seeing it on the shelf of a store. I lit the candle and as I read the first prayer, i felt a bit of diziness or trance-feeling. i didn't like the idea of calling death to myself. So, i quickly came to this forum to see what was written. when i read this post, i understood how serious this was. i even went to another website to see what they had to say... This is not something I want to do or get involved with. I killed the flame and asked the candle forgiveness, added a white rose as a token of good faith and threw the package in the dumpster at a crossroad this morning. I hope that solves it. I didn't know what else to do.... I agree, there should have been a disclaimer for that one.
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:57 am

Glad you did some research, and went with your gut feeling. Sorry to say this but if you have to put holy death on your target, then they are probably not even worth it anyways. You did the right thing, I would just go a step further and cleanse myself. Besides Santisma Muerte is to keep a lover faithful therefore if you are a mistress and trying to get back a married man...I would think that wouldnt be a great idea. OR if you have cheated in the past this spirit probably wouldnt work with you.

Anyways IBMagnet, glad you followed your instincts.
Thank u St. Martha for everything you have done on my behalf.
Thank u St. Elena! I appreciate your great help.
Thank you St. Peter for opening the gates&roads!
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Re: Thank you, Saint Muerte

Unread postby stelselv » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:47 pm

Dear St Muerte, a millions thanks for all your help.. even before I can complete the 9 days of novena you have already helped me.... you are a saint of feminism, a saint for all women..... and I love you for that....

I said the prayer below for another problem, it was not an Intraquility spell...so Please do not PM me...I just want to make St M known for the wonderful help she has offered me.....

Quick Prayer to Santa Muerte for a Special Request

Holy Death, I plead to you urgently. As you constitute Immortal God with your great power over all mortals--until you send us to the great celestial stars to enjoy a glorious day without night for all eternity! In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I ask this....(State your petition.) Amen.

(recite three Our Fathers)


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Thank you, Saint Muerte

Unread postby stelselv » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:04 am

Once Again, a million thanks to St Muerte for all your help..

St Muerte is not only a Saint for IS, but she is a feminist.. If there are women out there, battling with your problems, single handedly. St Muerte is the Saint you should petition to.. She is the most loving saint.. From my experience St M helps in all cases for women, not only IS..
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SANTERIA & LA SANTA MUERTE ?

Unread postby ANGEL007 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:03 pm

if you work with the orishas in santeria can you also work with la santa muerte ?
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Re: SANTERIA & LA SANTA MUERTE ?

Unread postby Miss Bri » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:45 am

Hi there,
This is a forum related to Hoodoo and sponsored by the Lucky Mojo Curio Co. We are not here to give advice on other religious practices like Santeria. The best advice I can give you is to go through the threads and PM those who have knowledge of Santeria or (even better) to seek out practitioners of that religion and get their take on whether or not you can work with Santisima Muerte.


take care,
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Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby lachina » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:23 am

i have searched and searched :oops: but i can't find the answer to this: my sister and i ave been working with her successfully, (i think she likes my sister more) the problem is that i don't just work with her; and my sister does.

being that we live in the same house we each have an altar to her, but lately it seems like there is something she's asking of me (in my dreams, the novena candles that i light for her all hint at that) could it be that she doesn't like for me to work with any other saints? also i have her altar in my bathroom, i don't know if this makes a difference or if she wants her altar IN my room.

any insight is appreciated. i am awaiting a large order i put in to lm with some of her oil.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby Devi Spring » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:32 am

Well, Santa Muerte is used primarily in Mexican folk magic, although some conjure practitioners work with her. So you may be better off asking on a forum for Mexican or Catholic folk magic specifically, as they do have their own traditions.

A reading with a worker that has a relationship with her would probably be a good idea.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:04 am

Santisma Muerte does NOT like you working with other spirits, and saints. I have herd that she is a very jealous spirit, and does not like saints to be worked with by the petitioner let alone in her same space. The bathroom does not seem like an ideal place to have an altar, but I guess it depends where you have it in the bathroom. But I would definitely get a reading, and see what she is asking of you.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby chy clayton s » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:39 am

I was taught altar in the bathroom for ancestor work.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby Devi Spring » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:23 pm

Really? That's very interesting. I've never run into that tradition before. Thank you for sharing.
Usually I hear that they should be somewhere in the heart of the home, where all the activity takes place.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby chy clayton s » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:39 pm

I have an altar in the bathroom for ancestorial work and so that should I need to collect urine et all or when I take a purifying bath it is before God. I have several white linen cloths beside the altar because a certain male person in my household can function in the morning with my grandmother's photo glaring at him - he apologizes to her, covers the photo, and then removes the cloth as he leaves.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby lachina » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:57 pm

I went ahead and changed her to my room and the candle has slowed-- it was burning really quick the 7 day glass was only lasting 3 days.- I also knew that she's jealous and any petition you make of her with promises you have to fulfill.

But I thought that as long as you didn't commit to only working with her you're ok with working with other saints. Maby I was wrong. I will schedule a reading to see what's going on

on the airr page I don't see any rootworkers listed that work with her. Could anyone recommend anyone that works with her abs knows a bit more than I do?
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby hoodoo curious » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:36 pm

Lachina, AIRR workers who petition Spirits and Saints -- and may work with Santisima Muerte on behalf of clients -- are listed on this page:

http://readersandrootworkers.org/index. ... _Tradition

I've heard she's a jealous spirit and doesn't like you working with other saints. And after she completes what you ask you can't just forget about her... you have to continue to think of her and honor her for her not to get upset with you and to continue helping you.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby lachina » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:47 pm

The reason I've started learning all I can about hoodoo and working with saints, most of the curanderos around here a rip offs. They will tell you that you are cursed and need limpias and charge 2000 for beginning work.

I had a card reading with Lara Rivera from ARR and gave me wonderful advise. I will be going to Mexico in a few months to learn more on Santa Muerte. She is very special spirit and very miraculous.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby hoodoo curious » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:53 pm

OH NO! $2000 for a limpia is way too much. I know there are a lot of cons out there.

At least with AIRR you know you are getting someone who has been screened...

La Santa Muerte, I believe Lucky Mojo has a page about her:

http://luckymojo.com/santisimamuerte.html

AIRR has a page on her too:

http://readersandrootworkers.org/index. ... ima_Muerte
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby hoodoo curious » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:56 pm

FYI - I just ordered a book you can find LM about working with Saints... it got some bad reviews on Amazon, but when it gets here I'll let you know what I think about it... you might be interested in ordering it. I think it's called "The Magical Power of the Saints.".. it's in the book section of LM's online shop.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby lachina » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:40 pm

I lije that book. I have it already. I have read A lot on SM. We call her huesitos here at our house. And so far I have been very successful at the "work" I've done from the research I've done here. I have incorporated some of the Mexican folk magic and so far so good!
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby hoodoo curious » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:11 am

I just got the book... hopefully I'll have time to read some of it tonight... I just started work with SM... I've only tried a honey jar on my own... which I researched it and it seems to be working...
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Re: Santisima Muerte

Unread postby lajolli79 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:31 am

Devi Spring wrote:Santisima Muerte is definitely one of those spirits that I feel that one should not petition lightly, and only after having educated themselves very thoroughly on how properly to work with her, what to expect, etc. There are resources available by those who have studied and practiced curanderismo (Mexican folk Catholic magic and healing) that provide nice background info on her, as well as outline some basic ways to work with her - availing oneself of those is a good idea, or at the very least trying to find a practitioner experienced in working with her who can guide you through the dos and don'ts.


Hello everyone..I definetely agree with Devi.. La Santa Muerte is a very strong entity, and very demanding to work with.

Now if someone wants to work with her, and you are doing the Novena...I would recommend that you clean your candle with some florida water, holy water ect..then what I do I prepare the candle by making three whole in the candle..then dress your candle with your intention..for example if its for love then I usually add honey, cinnamon, Atraction oils, usually Patchuli, Ambar..ect...in the holes, then I make my petition paper place it under the candle, and then bless the candle prior to lighting it, The novena is usually done at night for 9 days, then I usually bury my work at grave yard..just like how is shows here when disposing of rituals....


Hope that helps I know this is an old post.
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Re: santa muerte

Unread postby lajolli79 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:47 am

. I will be going to Mexico in a few months to learn more on Santa Muerte. She is very special spirit and very miraculous.[/quote]

Hola Lachina..If you go to Mexico buy all the things that you can't get here..USA has very limited products on SM...Good luck!!
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby snake » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:38 am

Wow, I had no idea this thread had so many comments!!

I have to say that in my experience Santa Muerte is not any more "dangerous" jealous or demanding than the orishas or lwa. She can certainly help with controlling, cursing, darker types of work, but I have also found her to be helpful with money and healing. You do have to be careful what you ask for, but you should always be careful what you ask for anyway! She has been tremendously helpful to me and has respected my personal boundaries that I set with her. LM has some really pretty statues of her!!

*edited to add:
I always have to do a lot of cleansing when I work with her because I find that I have the smell of death on me or in my aura.
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:13 am

This thread has been combined with all the different threads about SM thats why it seems so long.
Thank u St. Martha for everything you have done on my behalf.
Thank u St. Elena! I appreciate your great help.
Thank you St. Peter for opening the gates&roads!
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby gemini » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:25 am

Question about offerings. I read the LM page but didn't see any suggested offerings for SM. Or what would you suggest saying as an opening? Like "I will offer this until my lover comes back then I'll give one last offering, then we're done..." My research is giving me a lot of background info but not a lot of pettition examples >.<
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby Devi Spring » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:25 am

Do a divination with Santa Muerte to see if what you intend to offer in payment is accepted or not. I find that flowers and runs of candles set for her tend to be some common offerings in payment.
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want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby thatdude915 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:30 pm

hey guys, I want to reconcile with my ex, we have been broken up for a few months now and really dont have that much communication because of my part.... What products of her do you recommend I order from Lucky Mojo?
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby ConjureMan Ali » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:56 pm

I believe Santisima Muerte is commonly called upon in Catholic folk-magick to keep one's husband faithful. Her novena seems to indicate this as well. She's called upon to bring back a wandering husband upon the pain of death. The base of her statue holds a knotted chord with semen.

I know she has come to taken on patronage in other areas in Mexico as well. There are reports that she is petitioned by police officers and those outside of the law alike. Her following is certainly growing, but I believe in matter's of love she may be a female folk saint.

This however is just my understanding from what I've read. I have not worked with her, and I would probably wait until someone who has worked with her in practical work can either affirm or correct this. I may be off the mark, but maybe Miss cat can pitch in or someone else who's worked with her.
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby Turnsteel » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:00 pm

I have worked with her in the past and I have never know nor heard about her working to bring back a wandering female, its just not her thing I think.
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby starsinthesky7 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:08 pm

I would recommend that you get a reading before doing any work either with a Saint or not. A reading will help you determine what steps you need to do.

Furthermore, you can browse the forum as we have discussed numerous ways to bring back a lover. Santisma Muerte is probably not going to be your best bet here. I would work with another saint such as saint martha, or St. Anthony. There are many other ways to bring back a lover rather than killing an ant with a sledge hammer. Santisma Muerte is definitely something you should research further on. You can refer to several threads about her on this forum.

In addition, you can do a reconciliation spell kit, or a honey jar just to name a few things. But sounds like you are going to need a reading to really make sure that you are addressing the actual issues of this relationship since the lack of communication is due to your own accord.

Check out the forum...many great topics, and things have been discussed.
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby thatdude915 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:33 pm

thanks guys, I will get a reading before I continue, I think I am going to order the incense and the oil from Lucky Mojo though
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby Joseph Magnuson » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:21 pm

thatdude915 wrote:thanks guys, I will get a reading before I continue, I think I am going to order the incense and the oil from Lucky Mojo though


A very wise decision! Congrats and best of luck in your endeavors!
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby lajolli79 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:12 pm

:D Finally I can give my input in something I know jiji..i've worked with SM..and I also know of men that have petitioned to bring back a lost love..I don't know how much I can writte about it here or even if I'm allowed..but if you want send me a PM...Otherwise the best of luck!!
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby Tabbylove17 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:13 pm

I think Saint Anthony would be better.
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby lachina » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:19 am

I have worked extensively with SM and I will tell you that she's not someone that you can work with and forget about!! Once you start working with her (being that she lets you) you have to keep up with her candles or altar. She's been wonderful to me and my sister, and yes she will also work with men. You just have to ask for permission to work with her first. PM me if you want any more information.
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Re: want my ex girlfriend back/ want to petition Santisima Muert

Unread postby thatdude915 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:27 am

Ritual Sound wrote:
thatdude915 wrote:thanks guys, I will get a reading before I continue, I think I am going to order the incense and the oil from Lucky Mojo though


A very wise decision! Congrats and best of luck in your endeavors!




thanks dude, Good Luck to you as well friend
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby ANGEL007 » Mon May 31, 2010 6:49 pm

about sm , some people are on the religious tip when it comes to her and others are more personal and dont get into all rituals and still find that sm aka Mictecacihuatl is there for them.

how many peeps here work with her along with the orishas ?
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby Devi Spring » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:11 am

The Orishas are part of Santeria, and so off-topic to a hoodoo forum.

But there are a handful of forum members who have worked with Santisma Muerte before. Also, the link between Santisma Muerte and the pre-Christian cultures is still very hotly debated. While some feel that she has more ancient roots, many others do not - seeing her as a Christian angel.
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Re: Working with Sanitisima Muerte / Santa Muerte / Holy Death

Unread postby ANGEL007 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:19 pm

we cant talk about santeria and santa muerte on the same topic ? if we cant my bad no disrespect 8-)
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