Hoodoo, Religion, and Religious Magic: Voodoo Wicca Santeria Witchcraft Christianity Atheism

Unread post by **queenladyt** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:04 am

Cat what is the difference between chaos magic and hoodoo? Do
they both work the same? I have heard of it before, I need to
research it.

Peace and Love,

queenladyt

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:19 am

queenladyt,

e1Chaos Magick is a modern system that made a big splash in the late
1970s and early 1980s, mainly through the writings of a man named
Peter Carroll. The idea behind it is that all magick is in your mind
and so you can mix and match magical symbol-systems from various
cultures or just MAKE THINGS UP YOURSELF ON THE SPOT and CALL them
magic and they will BE magic. In other words, you could declare that
if you put your thumbs and fingers together to make two circles and
held them before your eyes, that anything you saw through those
circles would come under your power -- and it would be so. You could
declare that pieces of paper labelled ADAM and EVE would be as
powerful as Adam and Eve roots, or that TYPING A SPELL ON YOUR
KEYBOARD IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS was magical and caused it to come
true. This is not like hoodoo, which is based in herbalism and
rootwork and old African magical and religious belief systems that
are in large part passed down through the generations. Logically,
all magical systems were "invented," but most of them have deep
roots in their cultures. Chaos magic began as an urban phenomenon
among the culturally dispossessed. Do a google search on Chaos
Magick and Peter J. Carroll.

Unread post by **panmodal23** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:22 am

Cat,

With all due respect, and no intention to start an argument, I would
like to speak in defense of chaos magick. The examples given here
are not representative of the original theory and practice of chaos
magick.

The fundamental idea upon which chaos magick is based is that there
are underlying functional similarities between many (some would
incautiously say "all") working magickal systems, and that these
functional elements can be removed from their original context
and "distilled" into a personal magickal system that resonates with
one's own psychological makeup and cultural experience [looked at
this way, chaos magick is a sort of "meta-system" through which one
organizes one's own practice and beliefs, rather than a magickal
system, per se]. ---Looking back over the previous sentence, I
realize that this sounds like just a hifalutin' paraphrase of cat's
own description, but the difference is in the *depth* - this process
was intended to be a life-long journey of discovery and growth,
supplemented with exhaustive research and rigorous practice. It was
a way to combat the "cultural dispossession" felt by many
(particularly) urban magickians by growing a personal mythology that
was more relevant and meaningful to them than the (usually
Christian) mythology that they grew up with (and felt alienated
from).

Unfortunately, many people made the mistake of interpreting "chaos
magick" as "easy magick" ("'cos it's just, like, whatever you want,
innit?") and made a horrible embarassment of the whole chaos
magick "scene" with displays of flamboyant ignorance and cultural
disrespect - much as many writers have engaged in
flagrant "fingerpainting" and labeled it "hoodoo." But chaos magick
itself (done with strength of intent and clear purpose) can be a
very effective and fulfilling practice, and is far from "easy."

The practices cat describes certainly might have a place in chaos
magick - as "thought experiments," perhaps, but hopefully not as
one's central practice (though I'm sure there are people who do
exactly that and think they're the Kings of the World *grimace*).
There is a lot of experimentation, improvisation, and straight up
play in chaos magick, and a lot of psycho-drama and Situationist-
style exploration, but it was (at least originally) intended to all
take place within a stable and carefully documented (as in Crowley's
magickal journaling, etc.) ritual framework.

I have been active in the (online and ftf) chaos magick community
for five or six years, and have found that you get out of chaos magick
exactly what you put into it: hard work will get you your intended
results or more; frivolous dabbling will get you bored and send you
on your way looking for something else to play with. Some of the
underlying principles (or assumptions) made by Carroll and his
contemporaries (and followers) may be suspect, but regardless, the
actual practice *works*.

Since beginning this course I have blended hoodoo with my previous
chaos magick practice (e.g. sigils, "mantras," ecstatic trance) with
great success (a lot of what I'm doing now is straight-up hoodoo as
we are being taught, but it really lends itself to synthesis,
especially for long rituals or extended workings).

As I said at the beginning, I'm not looking for an argument. I just
want to provide an alternative view of chaos magick to balance what
I
felt to be a dismissive misrepresentation. I mean no disrespect to
your experience or to your position as our teacher, but I did feel
the need to respond -- as I would have to any professor I've studied
under.

Meanwhile, I have some lodestone questions, but I'll re-read the
lessons first to see if they answer themselves.

Have fun!

=Ilya

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:22 am

Thanks for the balanced counterpoint, Ilya. I am not so down on
Chaos Magick as it may have seemed from the kick-in-the-pants
definition i gave. I have great respect for those who have developed
Chaos Magick from a combination of multicultural scholarship and
intuitively auto-generated magical paradigms within a framework of
experiment and journal-keeping.

Unread post by **panmodal23** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:23 am

Hello,

I would just like to append my earlier post about chaos magick
by adding that, as important as he was in synthesizing and popularizing
chaos magick theory, Peter Carroll's writing can be very off-
putting, even abrasive. He tends to write fairly dogmatically about throwing
off the chains of dogma, and his overall attitude nearly turned me
off to chaos magick altogether until I learned to sift the valuble
information from the stylistics. Another far more easy-going
introduction might be the work of Phil Hine, or a highly critical
and discerning perusal of some chaos websites like the Chaos Matrix.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:23 am

panmodal23,

Chaos Magick authors whose writings i like are Joseph Maxx 555 at
the chaosmatrix web site (he lives near to me; i just saw him over
the weekend when siva and i attended an Open Source Order of the
Golden Dawn ceremony in which he participated) and Joel Biroco
(a.k.a. Steve Marshall) at Kaos magazine in the UK.\

Unread post by **Barbara Griffith** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:20 pm

I went to the site

http://www.silverravenwolf.com

and saw this: "Hoodoo and Hexerie Practitioner" -- was this claim always made by her? And whose picture is that woman on the site on several pages? -- it's not her.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:59 pm

The question was asked, "How long has Silver Ravenwolf" been calling
herself a "hoodoo rpactioner"?

(Barbara, you can find out for yourself how long that "Hoodoo Practitioner" claim has been online at her site by going to

http://www.archive.org

and typing her URL in the "Wayback Machine." This will show you every version of her site that has been cached by archive.org. Click on each link from the earliest original (December 1998) to the most recent revision (Februray 2004) and let us all know what you find out. As for the picture, i can't help you there. Perhaps others might have a clue. --cat)

I got curious and poked around the cache of silverravenwolf.com at
http://www.archive.org in the Wayback Machine.

Here's what i found out:

In 1998 Silver Ravenwolf's site was called The Raven's Nest and she was
advertising heself as the author of "Teen Witch." There was no mention
of hoodoo. Rather, she noted that "Silver's group, The Black Forest
Family, is considered Euro-Wiccan, drawing from Silver's German
heritage and Pow-Wow training, and the excellent training she received
from her Old Guard Wiccan magickal teachers."
http://web.archive.org/web/199812070451 ... nwolf.com/
newpage4.htm

In 1999 she began to refer to herself as Mama Silver and was offering
information about "American Magick." There was no mention of hoodoo.
http://web.archive.org/web/200002291839 ... nwolf.com/
newpage1.htm

In 2001 she was still offering "American Magick" with no mention of
hoodoo.
http://web.archive.org/web/200010270434 ... nwolf.com/
newpage1.htm

In January 2002 the word "hoodoo" did not appear in her self-
description:
http://web.archive.org/web/200202031442 ... nwolf.com/
books.htm

In January 2003 she establshed herself as a "hoodoo and hexerie
practitioner."
http://web.archive.org/web/200302070810 ... nwolf.com/
Table+of+Contents.htm

Well, we all have to start somehwere. Silver Ravenwolf has been
practicing hoodoo for two years -- about as long as i have been
teaching this course, come to think of it.

cat yronwode

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:03 pm

I always get a smile when i see the way she bills herself as
"Internationally Known Silver Ravenwolf." It just uncontrollably reminds
me of "Floyd's Nationally Advertised Record Shop" in Ville Platte,
Louisiana.

cat

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:20 pm

Okay, so on the subject of those who claim knowledge that they do not
have or which they have quickly sucked up by reading other people's
books and are now spewing out for fame and gain, here are a few other
folks' opinions -- and i hope you all enjoy them:

Pagan Authors to Avoid by J. Faulk
http://www.thecrookedheath.com/bewarenf.htm

Tarnished Silver by
http://www.ecauldron.com/opedtarnishedsilver.php

And that is about all i will say on that for now.

cat (quietly going back to hanging signage and pictues in the shop
now... )

Unread post by **RedWill0w** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:48 pm

In a message dated 3/21/2005 12:04:18 AM Central Standard Time,
cat@luckymojo.com writes:

> > I always get a smile when i see the way she bills herself as
> "Internationally Known Slver Ravenwolf." It just uncontrollably reminds
> me of "Floyd's Nationally Advertised Record Shop" in Ville Platte,
> Louisiana.
>
> cat

Gotta love that Floyd's

This reminds me too of the many readers I have encountered whose promo
glibly mentions their international celebrity clientele. "Reader to the stars" is a common way these folks describe themselves. Always amused me. Most readers who have been around for awhile have read a famous person or two, but though mildly interesting, it certainly doesn't prove anything at all about their ability. Not just that, but seems like many of these same readers are themselves international television and radio personalities. Have you noticed this? All these attributes stud their flyers and promo like rhinestones. It's so odd, in a due-to-be-renovated, Las Vegas Extravaganza sort of way.

Dara

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:51 pm

Dara --

My thoughts exactly. I once met a man in London whose come-on to have sex with me was that he was "one of Mick Jagger's house cleaners."

--cat)

Unread post by **RedWill0w** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:54 am

> (My thoughts exactly. I once met a man in London whose come-on to have sex
> with me was that he was "one of Mick Jagger's house cleaners."

--cat)

ROFL! Hard to resist!

Dara

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:46 am

Dara,

Yet, strangely, i did resist.

--cat

branson@cwnet.com · Unread post by **branson@cwnet.com** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:55 am

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:58 , catherine yronwode <cat@luckymojo.com> sent:

> >The question was asked, "How long has Silver Ravenwolf" been calling
>herself a "hoodoo rpactioner"?

Since she found it was a good marketing device. But the rest of the story is that
her first magical practice (which she doesn't seem to mention) did contain a
certain amount of hoodoo-esque material. Lots of oils and other Ana Riva stuff,
candle dressing and the like. I guess that she has elevated that part of her
training in Wicca to full-status Hoo Doo. Sliver originally came from my end of
the world, and we were taught many of the same things.

Branson

Unread post by **Mike Rock** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:59 pm

On Mar 21, 2005, at 12:50 AM, RedWill0w@aol.com wrote:

> >
> (My thoughts exactly. I once met a man in London whose come-on to
> have sex with me was that he was "one of Mick Jagger's house
> cleaners."

--cat)
>

Hey I used to mow the lawn for Sarah Weddington!

mike

Unread post by **ambrrrrr** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:38 am

While we're talking about Silver Ravenwolf ...

My gripe about her is not that she's absorbing as much information as she
possibly can, because Lord knows we all try to and that's what we're here for.
My magic box is stuffed full of all kinds of traditions and heritage- I'm not
knocking that. But I feel like every tradition she stumbles into, she's
suddenly touting herself the "master" of ... That's always annoyed me.

The BIG thing that bothers me is the way she's explained Pennsylvania Dutch
magic. That's pretty close to my neck of the woods (Appalachian folk magic),
and these traditions are all so DIFFERENT. Just because they all use herbs
and have similar influences doesn't mean you can lump all categories of
American folk magic in together, and I feel like she's giving that impression.

I'm not too shabby at the Appalachian folk stuff because of my family, and I've
learned from this group that hoodoo is a different bird altogether. It has
different roots and traditions ...

Just because you know a little bit about it doesn't make you a Cat Yronwode.

It doesn't give you any power. What gives you the power is loving it, and
telling other people about how much it means to you -- helping them get grounded
in the thing. I don't doubt for a second that Silver is applying Law of
Three to hoodoo work. *sighs*

:crawls back into her corner:

Amber

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:39 am

ambrrr,

My sincere objection to Silver Ravenwolf's writings on Pennsylvania Dutch Pow Wow magic aka Hexerie aka Hexenkraft is that she didn't do any real research, talk to any living Pennsylvania Dutch people, study or learn with any real, living herb doctor or Pow Wow practitioners. She bought a copy of "Pow Wows or the Long-Lost Friend" by John George Hohman (one Pennsylvania Dutch magic book out of dozens that just happened to have been translated into English -- but there are many, many other book sources still in German for which partial English translations exist -- not to mention THOUSANDS of living practitioners in Pennsylvania who could have been consulted) and she rewrote selected spells from that book to take out all of the Christian language -- and she inserted all this "Lord and Lady" and "Goddess" Wicca language into the spells instead of what was originally given.

There was NO call for that. It is dishonest and disrespectful of the Pennsylvania Dutch people. It is tantamount to writing a book on Jewish folk magic and saying that all Jews actually pray to Jesus, or writing a book on Islamic folk magic and saying that all Muslims actually pray to Krishna.

It is wrong. It is dumb. It is bad. It is just bad, dumb, and WRONG. Grrrr.

It is true that hoodoo has always been accepting of input from various cultures, and "Pow Wows" by Hohman is one of a number of non-African books on magic that is fully accepted by most hoodoo rootworkers, in part due to the Christian spells in "Pow Wows" and the book's availability during the early 20th century "mail order phase" of hoodoo development. See my HITAP web page on "Pow Wows" for more on this. It is at

http://www.luckymojo.com/powwows.html

But if her take on hoodoo is as way off track as her take on "Pow Wows," i dread to elarn what she will be publishing on the subject.

As for people "becoming cat yronwode -- Ooooh, but what if they did? Imagine a legion of half-blind old hippie women roaming the countryside raving about herbal taxonomy and signs from candle-burning, misplacing their cups of coffee, humming Memphis Jug Band songs under their breath, and stopping in the middle of random tasks to teach their dogs how to yodel on command. SCARY!!!!

And by the way, Amber, i *like* it when you come out of your corner!

Unread post by **Rev_Fred** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:40 am

Ciao!

> > Okay, so on the subject of those who claim knowledge that they do not
> have or which they have quickly sucked up by reading other people's
> books and are now spewing out for fame and gain, [...]
> cat

"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism;
to steal from many is research."

(from my collection of One Line Signatures from the Internet)

Fred

Unread post by **Rev_Fred** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:05 am

> ([...] I once met a man in London whose come-on to have sex with me
was that he was "one of Mick Jagger's house cleaners."

--cat)

It's a shame that you were not interested: a pinch of "Rock Star's
House Dirt" could do marvels as an ingredient of a "Rock Star Hero"
mojo. Imagine how many kids would order it

))!

Fred

(Lord, that reminds me of those 1970 ads for "Genuine Dirt from Dracula's Castle" that used to run in the back pages of "Creepy" and "Eerie" comics. --cat)

Unread post by **Inominandum** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:09 am

> In January 2002 the word "hoodoo" did not appear in her self-
> description:
> http://web.archive.org/web/200202031442 ... nwolf.com/
> books.htm
>
> In January 2003 she establshed herself as a "hoodoo and hexerie
> practitioner."
> http://web.archive.org/web/200302070810 ... nwolf.com/
> Table+of+Contents.htm
>
> Well, we all have to start somehwere. Silver Ravenwolf has been
> practicing hoodoo for two years -- about as long as i have been
> teaching this course, come to think of it.
>
> cat yronwode

I know that she lives down the street from Ray Malbrough and that
they are friends. I am assuming that is her source.

My beef with them both is not what they teach, but what they present
that teaching as. I have benefited a lot from learning people's
distinct individual ways of doing things and syncretisms. I do it
this myself. The problem I have is when these things get presented as
historically accurate representations of the mainstream.

Jason

(I agree. That is my one and only negative comment about them. They misrepresent distinct and unique unbroken traditions of folk magic as forms of Neo-Paganism, which they are not. --cat)

Unread post by **Quimbisero** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:11 am

And people wonder why I have the attitude that i do?

Eoghan

(But we know you are an old curmudgeon, Eoghan.

--cat)

nonesuch52 · Unread post by **nonesuch52** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:13 am

"Barbara Griffith" <Barbara.Griffith@C...> wrote:
> >
> I went to the site
>
> http://www.silverravenwolf.com
>
> and saw this: "Hoodoo and Hexerie Practitioner" -- was this claim
> always made by her? And whose picture is that woman on the site on
> several pages? -- it's not her.

You're right; it's definitely not her. I took her newsletter on the
Pagan Press for a year a long time ago. Her real name is Jeanine
Trayer, and she is dark-haired and, of course, middle-aged.

(Maybe she's a shape-shifter? --cat)

Unread post by **Barbara Griffith** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:15 am

branson@cwnet.com [mailto:branson@cwnet.com] wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 05:58 , catherine yronwode <cat@luckymojo.com> sent:

> > > The question was asked, "How long has
> > Silver Ravenwlf" been calling
> > herself a "hoodoo rpactioner"?
>
> Since she found it was a good marketing
> device. But the rest of the story is that
> her first magical practice (which she
> doesn't seem to mention) did contain a
> certain amount of hoodoo-esque material.
> Lots of oils and other Ana Riva stuff,
> candle dressing and the like. I guess
> that she has elevated that part of her
> training in Wicca to full-status Hoo Doo.
> Sliver originally came from my end of
> the world, and we were taught many of the
> same things.
>
> Branson

I distinctly recall walking into my first real witchcraft shop in January 1993. As I learned more, it was astonishing to me how much of the terminology and practice was uncredited hoodoo, being passed off as European wicca.

(That is the truth. --cat)

Unread post by **Barbara Griffith** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:17 am

> (Barbara, you can find out for yourself how
> long that "Hoodoo Practitioner" claim has
> been online at her site by going to
>
> http://www.archive.org
>
> and typing her URL in the "Wayback Machine."
> This will show you every version of her site
> that has been cached by archive.org. --cat)

Thanks - I had completely forgotten about the wayback machine, having encountered it years ago and using it to perform a practical joke. Seems a former friend used to link to a guestbook for his web site, one that notified him when somebody posted. He got into an 'argument' later and took off the guestbook. But he didn't disable it, just took off the link. A past version of the website still had the link, and since the guestbook was still active ....

(Funny! Yes, the Wayback Machine is a cool device. --cat)

Unread post by **Mari Jackson** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:26 am

Since there are no certifications, I suppose she can call herself a Hoodoo practitioner. Could be? But, a magician better be able to magish! People find out the truth, sooner or later. Pretension eventually is shown up for what it is.

For all those who are given to the flamboyant, there are those who are quietly doing the work. As Mambo Racine says, "Good is rare".

Unread post by **Quimbisero** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:33 pm

>
> (But we know you are an old curmudgeon, Eoghan.

--cat)

Hey, I have a reputation to maintain.

Eoghan

Unread post by **Mike Rock** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:39 pm

On Mar 21, 2005, at 6:11 AM, Barbara Griffith wrote:

> >
> I distinctly recall walking into my first real witchcraft shop in
> January 1993. As I learned more, it was astonishing to me how much of
> the terminology and practice was uncredited hoodoo, being passed off
> as European wicca.
>
> (That is the truth. --cat)
>

And even worse, hoodoo gets dissed as "Black magic". Like that's a bad
thing.

mike

Kwame Ajamu · Unread post by **Kwame Ajamu** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:23 pm

Hello, everyone, as I think that I have stated somewhere on here or
somewhere else, that I already have eleke(used to have elekes),and
warriors from the Yoruba tradition,for those unfamiliar with these
minor Yoruba initiations, any web search for Orisha worship will give
adequate info on such,anyhow, I have used these forceses with varing
degrees of success.

One night after studying the gurdjieff fourth way system with my
teacher, and after reading the booy views from the real world,
something in the book, greatly disturbed me concerning the the
destiny of the vasts majority of mankind after death.

Upon reading it, something in me knew that it rang true and i became
much distress on behave of mankind in general, and of course myself.

That night signaled what is known by many my personal dark night of
the soul, the first of at least a few more since then to come.

As I was in a stat of not sleep but weariness, there in my minds eye
as my physical eyes were closed descended upon me what I know now to
be the big black man in hoodoo parlance, and a sense of near fear but
yet calm enveloped my being, for even though there was the sense of
fear in me, there was also the instinct, that there was nothing to be
afraid of.

That early morn, somewhere between midnight and three, many strange
noises and spirits appeared to me, and comforted me, Gods and
goddesses that I never even knew existed until later research
revealed their identity's, and prominet amongst them was Laksmi,
though she appeared to me as a sort cross between the sexy plump
smiley faced Hindu girl that I knew from hanging out at the college
computer lab,(she always sort of shyly flirted with me but was afraid
to even touch the forbidden fruit)and a sexy sister with light brown
skin and long black frizzy hair, I quess that equals something akin
to a plump full figured Puerto rican, or the future american race to
come, in appearance.

Later on she came to me in a meditation and put one of her breasts in
my mouth, right or left I do not know..right or left breast that is.

About a year later, I went to a Booby hemmit talk, a counterculture
metaphysical and spiritual lectuer, and he was selling old drawings
of Laksmi, taken from a british museam and from an ancient likeness
of the Goddess, this was sometimes in 2004, around the time that
venus had passed the path of the sun.

he had sugessted that on give offerings and set up an alter, and ask
for success.

Well, I had found twelve pennies to give to lady Laksmi and that
night at work, I am a bouncer in a night club, instead of getting my
usual pay, I got four times that, from graft at the door, I never
work the door but am always in the club, but somehow the door guy
couldnt make, I brought home over five hundred dollars that night.

the thing is that I had found 48 cents, and something told me to
offer twelve of them to Laksmi and that it would be increased four
fold, I did and it did.

Since then I have tried to offer Laksmi ritual every friday and since
then I have been prospering, I asked Shri Laksmi for certain women
with money, I have two of them high rolling, moderately sexy women
plus my one night stand supply has increased considerably, not that I
asked for that.

I am a --well--was, a quite poor guy, now, I got to bodyguard BG, one
of the cash money millionare boys when he was here in my city and got
two hubdred for that and am about to bodyguard other big rappers, as
come here in town, all under the table.

I have..well.. had no real income but the one or two days I worked as
a bouncer now four nights a week, but that and my autistic sons ssi
check, whom I support and had to resign from being a prison guard, to
take care of, and most of my disposable income went into him, and I
asked Shri laksmi to somehow let me ascertain some property,
preferably a two family so that my son and I,as he tears up evry apt
that we move to and we end up being kicked out, will have a place to
live, I was close to putting him in an institution, when somehow,
through some connections, an old and dear millionare friend of my
grand mothers has mannaged to arrange for me to get a two family by
land contract, for pepole with no cash and the worst credit
imaginable.

Not only that, but we all know that spirits will find the easiest
ways to bless the worshipper with what they need, since all that i
have is my wit, pretentions to intellectualism( psudo-at best), and a
tall strong physique, I have become the midnight cowboy to a few
thirsting fourty and fifity something year old still somewhat hot
upper middleclass to moderatly wealthy women. Cat..I hope ya let this
post stand, Thank you.

Unread post by **Sister Jacqueline** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:10 pm

Lakshimi and Oshun kinda ride the same wave,if you know what I mean,
so that may explain your Puerto Rican vision.

Nuff' said,

Jackie

Unread post by **Zevenster** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:34 pm

"Kwame Ajamu" <bassreeves2003@y...> wrote:

> > [...] all that i have is my
> wit, pretentions to intellectualism (psudo-at best), and a
> tall strong physique, I have become the midnight cowboy to a few
> thirsting fourty and fifity something year old still somewhat hot
> upper middleclass to moderatly wealthy women. Cat..I hope ya let
> this post stand, Thank you.

This story... i don't want to opiniate or to tell anyone how to live
or how to hoodoo (goddess forbid) but this story makes me feel very
uncomfortable.

The way sex and money come in to it - i just don't feel "good" with
this. I am not a prude but my idea of the hoodoo thing is not so
much that it should be all integrity, but it is under the table
money, which in my opinion doesn't last like it should to make your
life really comfortable in the long run, and the sex sounds like some
women are being wringed here?

But than again, who am i... Morals shouldn't be in the way of
hoodooing, i guess.

7*

Kwame Ajamu · Unread post by **Kwame Ajamu** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:37 pm

> The way sex and money come in to it -
> i just don't feel "good" with
> this.
>
> 7*
>
> (Well, i try to let people speak
> their minds here, as long as they
> stay on topic. As a "fifty
> something year old still somewhat hot"
> woman myself, i can say that
> there is nothing wrong with being a
> gigolo, but the best ones, like the
> best whores, are emotionally
> deep as well as sexually pleasing
> to their clients. If Kwame has the
> good heart to match his self-proclaimed
> "tall strong physique" then
> the women he mentions are getting
> something nice. --cat)

Thank you Cat, and I am all heart, or at least thats what people
keep telling me.

In response to zevenstar, these are the things that
hoodoo was and is used for, at least most of the time, for sex, and
its second cousin love, and money, just check out the spell for
attracting costumers to a whore house, and even more things that
many people with our western judeo-christian sympathies would find
quite appalling.

Hoodoo, like its Afrikan mother religions Palo and Voodoo and
such, are religions and practiceses for living in this life now; it
is used to solve common every day problems.

(That was well said, and i agree, because, like you, i have used hoodoo to solve a variety of problems that most people wouldn't bring to Church to pray about, if you know what i mean. --cat)

Kwame Ajamu · Unread post by **Kwame Ajamu** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:39 pm

> Lakshimi and Oshun kinda ride the same wave,if you know what I mean,
> so that may explain your Puerto Rican vision.
>
> Nuff' said,
>
> Jackie

Well, I called her a puerto-rican, because in my Blackman's
experince with women, my mind made a Hindu lady kind of conform to
how I see women.

Like the Japanese anime, toons, portrayal of American kids, that don't
exactly look like American kids, but are a japanese rendition of
occidentals, seen from their own eyes.

In other words, she came to me like the combo of an Anfrican-American
Hindu woman, which could seem somewhat similar to a latin ala vie
Puerto-rican woman.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:38 pm

Zevenster,

Well, i try to let people speak their minds here, as long as they stay on topic. As a "fifty something year old still somewhat hot" woman myself, i can say that there is nothing wrong with being a gigolo, but the best ones, like the best whores, are emotionally deep as well as sexually pleasing to their clients. If Kwame has the good heart to match his self-proclaimed "tall strong physique" then the women he mentions are getting something nice. But if he is all body and no heart, they'll quickly move along to someone who has more kindness in his soul, 'cause that's what women want.

Unread post by **Mike Rock** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:01 pm

On 6/2/05, Kwame Ajamu <bassreeves2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > prominet amongst them was Laksmi,
> though she appeared to me as a sort cross between the sexy plump
> smiley faced Hindu girl that I knew from hanging out at the college
> computer lab,(she always sort of shyly flirted with me but was afraid
> to even touch the forbidden fruit)and a sexy sister with light brown
> skin and long black frizzy hair, I quess that equals something akin
> to a plump full figured Puerto rican, or the future american race to
> come, in appearance.

ah.. Kwame you might be interested to know if you dont already that
Lady Laksmi lives in the Caribbean, just ask my friend Chela (of East
Indian descent) who lives in Trinidad.

Trini and Tobago have
traditions that are blending of African, Hindu and Christian elements.

blessings

mike

PS I have a beautiful batik of Laksmi in my bedroom, go to my blog
page to see it in the photo galleries http://mikerock.typepad.com - mr

Unread post by **Zevenster** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:11 pm

"Kwame Ajamu" <bassreeves2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> Thank you Cat, and I am all heart, or at least thats what people
> keep telling me.
>
> In response to zevenstar, these are the things that
> hoodoo was and is used for, at least most of the time, for sex, and
> its second cousin love, and money, just check out the spell for
> attracting costumers to a whore house, and even more things that
> many people with our western judeo-christian sympathies would find
> quite appalling.
>
> Hoodoo, like its Afrikan mother religions Palo and Voodoo and
> such, are religions and practiceses for living in this life now; it
> is used to solve common every day problems.
>
> (That was well said, and i agree, because, like you,
> i have used hoodoo to solve a variety of problems
> that most people wouldn't bring to Church to pray
> about, if you know what i mean. --cat)

LOL! Rightiousness comes to me once a month, if you get my drift.Never
mind! If i stop being so moral-conscious i might solve a problem or two
of my own. Thanks for the learning-moment!

7*

Unread post by **RedWill0w** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:46 pm

zevenster@tovert.nl writes:

> > > LOL! Rightiousness comes to me once a month, if you get my
> > drift. Never mind! If i stop being so moral-conscious i might solve
> > a problem or two of my own. Thanks for the learning-moment!

*Zevenster,

This was very cute lol, and every woman can relate. Most men too, poor things!

Dara

Unread post by **Chela** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:08 pm

Hello

Coming out of the woodwork as prompted by Mike.

Kwame Ajamu writes ~

> >prominet amongst them was Laksmi,
>though she appeared to me as a sort cross between the sexy plump
>smiley faced Hindu girl that I knew from hanging out at the college
>computer lab,(she always sort of shyly flirted with me but was
afraid
> >to even touch the forbidden fruit)and a sexy sister with light brown
>skin and long black frizzy hair, I quess that equals something akin
>to a plump full figured Puerto rican, or the future american race to
>come, in appearance.

Not quite the Lakshmi image from a spiritual vision point of
view.

True as Hindus/East Indians say, "God is *netti netti*"
that is God is neither this nor that and will appear in whatever
form most acceptable to the consciousness (mind or being) of the
devotee. In this case, in your mind, the closest image might be
Puerto Rican and your image is somewhat correct.

The following is an image that describes the coloration of Mother
Lakshmi ~

http://www.carnivaltribe.com/home.asp

However, in terms of spirit vision, Mother Laskmi appears as a girl-
woman, tanned skin (like the above web link) with long straight
black hair. She's very slender and mostly around 5'3". Her
disposition is calming, soothing and creates an essence of
tranquility. Good luck and fortune she brings and she becomes quite
concerned with those of devotees who suffer. She isn't the typical
warrior type as she's gentle, soft and regal. Other people here
(pundits) see her as an old woman. This manifestation I've never
seen.

Mike writes ~

> >ah.. Kwame you might be interested to know if you dont already that
>Lady Laksmi lives in the Caribbean, just ask my friend Chela (of
East
> >Indian descent) who lives in Trinidad.

Trini and Tobago have
>traditions that are blending of African, Hindu and Christian
elements.

Yup, we're a plurality of de all.

The Shango Baptists have
adopted some Hindu Deities. Some deities remain as they are and are
honoured as per Hindu tradition. Mother Lakshmi is honoured both as
Oshun and as herself Lakshmi, come divali (the festival of lights).

Of recent interest is that what I thought was Shango Baptist magic
is now turning out to be Hoodoo as how we're being taught by Cat.
How on earth this practice got here and why only the Shango
Baptists/Spiritualists use it is what I'm trying to uncover now.

Chela

(Look to the Congo for that inspiration. --cat)

Unread post by **Mike Rock** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:16 pm

Hi Cat,

Would you consider tackling the myth of "New Orleans Voodoo", with a summary of the stuff you've posted to the list and to alt.lucky.w like hoodoo being the correct term since forever, the history of the Spiritualist Churches, the frauds of Tallant and the "Voodoo Museum", and so forth? You seem to know more about it than most and have already written so much here and there, it just needs to be all brought together, it could link to your HITAP page on history.

It has gotten so bad that even some black folks i encounter on lists seem to think there is a "Marie Laveau Voodoo Tradition" that is seen as qualitatively different from "hoodoo" everywhere else, and that Yoruba divinities and caricatured versions of Haitian lwa [which they always spell 'loa' ugh] are indispensable to it.. when in fact this is just an assimilative aspect of NOLA Spiritualism, which has grown up hand in hand with rootwork, and an artifact of the same shops selling to Santerians and curanderos and hoodoos and the inevitable candle-swapping that comes about.

That is sure not unique to NOLA though. I can get a Chango candle at Fiesta here in Houston or in Austin, nobody talks about a "Austin Voodoo Tradition" tm or an Aldine-Houston Voodoo Tradition!

Seems like the tourist industry has repeated this Voodoo mystique thing for so long now, what 30 years, that even the black folks are starting to believe it. Folks growing up in the South need to know the truth about these things. So frustrating seeing the same lies repeated everywhere by people who oughta know better. Even I got partly taken in by thinking that voodoo was a local synonym of hoodoo, but yeah all those blues songs do talk about the "hoodoo women" of Algiers.

mike

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:55 am

Mike,

I will seriously consider your suggestion. The thing is, i hate being the bringer of unwelcome news -- and there are so many people committed to this bull now that anyone doubting it seems like a crank. But, yes, it is really time to speak up about it in a gentle and careful way. It might be a good exercise in keeping my temper!

I have about 12 more web pages to write on the lottery books (with interspersals of other pages in between, to keep me from becoming myopic), so i must leave any New Orleans myth-busting material for a later date. Thanks for the suggestion, and thanks also for making the point you have made about the "Austin Voodoo Tradition" -- not. I like that!

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:26 pm

For those interested in African Jews:

The Abayudaya Jews of Uganda have a web site. Check it out.

http://www.abayudaya.or.ug/home.htm

http://www.abayudaya.or.ug/About%20Us.htm

I found this site while researching Marcus Garvey (a long story, with many circuitous links) and i thought it might be of interest.

cat yronwode

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:11 pm

According to the articles i've seen, the Abayudaya (which means "Jews") of the Congo had been Christians but decided to abide by Jewish dietary laws (not much different than Seventh Day Adventists in that) and then began to disbelieve that Jesus had been the Messaiah, which left them, in a short while, identifying as jews. They make no secret of their reletively recent historical conversion to Judaism; they do not claim an unbroken lineage from ancient times.

The Lemba Jews of Eastern Africa have a much longer historical ecord of being Jews.

bellessecret · Unread post by **bellessecret** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:18 pm

I can't wait to order some things.

I was wondering if I should also read and learn about Voodoo - and how do I understand the difference?

Isn't Voodoo the religious side, and Hoodoo the practicing side not affiliated with a religion?

This is why I need books so I can understand.

I am actually Russian Orthodox and we do use the saints. But I think they are sort of different than the Catholic saints.

What brought me to Hoodoo was a problem I am having. A woman where I live, in Maryland, advised me to use an Our Lady of Charity glass candle and a Go Away oil. That and her amazing Hoodoo things she sold totally sparked my interest. I had never before thought about Hoodoo. I also should say I do some Kitchen Witchery using candles and oils and herbs.

I would love to read a good book about Marie Laveau and her daughter. Any recommendations? I looked at the Lucky Mojo booklist but didn't see anything unless I overlooked them.

Thank you so much. I'm so glad I have found this awesome site . I can't believe how much information and knowledge is here!!

Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:55 pm

Dear bellessecret,

Please see "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" by catherine yronwode, specifically the page on the history f hoodoo, here:
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

This page will give you a good overview why Voodoo is not hoodoo, nor "the religious side of hoodoo" as well as placing hoodoo in its proper Christian cultural context, which is essential to beginners in the tradition.

Understanding where these lines are and why they are there will help you to see the 'edges' where hoodoo resembles and even draws from other magical or religious traditions, and where it remains distinct. This will also help with your work in that you will be able to more clearly draw the line where you have changed too much from the tradition to call yourself a practitioner of hoodoo. Many workers do this in some form or another, but it's important that you know at what point you have done so.

It is good that you have found a place where you can discuss this type of work in person. I would just offer a friendly reminder to be aware of two things:

1) As someone who is new to rootwork, you will not be able to recognize right away whether everything this woman does falls within the tradition, like I was saying above, and

2) Questions about hoodoo are what this forum is here for, but its focus is primarily on Lucky Mojo's products and customers. Using this forum to disassemble what the other shop is doing may be ill-received and possibly inappropriate.

That being said, when I lived outside Baltimore I saw many things which in hindsight were definitely African-American folk magic.

And again, welcome. Start a thread in the introductions forum and let us know more about you.

bellessecret · Unread post by **bellessecret** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:12 pm

Thank you for all your information and advice again. I apologize for getting a bit carried away. I forgot totally that this is not a general discussion group, but it about the Lucky Mojo products.

And being close to Baltimore, I will start taking more notice of things..... I will go to the introduction thread. Thanks so much!

Editrix · Unread post by **Editrix** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:27 pm

Check this out for a very good, in-depth differentiation between hoodoo and Voodoo (and other info as well). It should help a great deal.
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html#hoodoois

bellessecret · Unread post by **bellessecret** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:51 am

Thank you so much, Editrix! I will definitely be reading it! I appreciate it very much.

yoopylucks · Unread post by **yoopylucks** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:12 am

I just have a question. i spoke to an Espiritista (Latin American Spiritualist) and i know that hoodoo has some roots in there mixed with Spiritism and would like some clarification.

This Espiritista lady told me about a spiritual bath that involved 5 pennies and beach water. The bath consisted of three gallons of beach water each of which you put 5 pennies into it then pour the water over you and then you through the pennies away

i need some clarification if anyone has heard of a bath like this or similar to this. ive looked online, ive got plenty of books on so many different spiritual systems, including Santeria, Palo, hoodoo, Espiritismo, Voodoo. I have not found anything or anyone that can give me clarification on this one particular bath.

ANY CLARIFICATION WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED THANK YOU IN ADVANCED.

Unread post by **Leah Rivera** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:11 am

I have not heard of this -- Copper and Beach Water-- in the hoodoo tradition of African American folk magic. Perhaps someone else has, but it would be very specific as to location, because most of the South is not ocean-front property. Actually, this sounds like a Caribbean Island custom, and it may be a magical one, not a religious one.
Lara

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yoopylucks · Unread post by **yoopylucks** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:19 am

I think that i have to ask this:

The truth remains that where i live there is a lot of Paleros or people who practice the African magic and religion called Palo Mayombe or Palo Monte. To me that is fine. I have a few friends who dabble and what not in that.

Now my question is, can one battle Palo Monte or Palo Mayombe with hoodoo or would this be out of the ordinary?

Say for example if "John Doe" was sent a hit from a Palero, could he counteract the hit or send it back using hoodoo?

Unread post by **Literarylioness** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:15 am

I know this topic has been covered, so you might want to do a thread search. Yes, "john doe" can counteract a hit using Christian hoodoo.

This is a topic of "whose magic is more powerful?" This is a very moot point all the way around, because so much depends on the magic workers themselves. The religions to which the workers belong will not make them stronger magicians, all things being equal.

I know of many, in my view, incompetent Paleros, who would be just as bad in any magical system; they just happen to be Paleros. I can say the same for some Vodou workers. Some people are just not gifted for magic, period. Just like some people can play hoops, but won't be in the NBA anytime soon.

Keep yourself protected and don't worry about what "system" others are doing or the name of their religion. If you want to study Hoodoo, then do so. If you want to practice the religion of Palo, then do so. Just don't start trying to compare apples, oranges, mangos, and pinapples when it comes to magical systems.

Good luck1

Mary

yoopylucks · Unread post by **yoopylucks** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:19 pm

ok thanks for the clarification i guess i was thinking that you would have to fight in the same system always but thank you so much for that

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:06 pm

Yoopylucks,

General American folk magic beliefs are not the same as specific hoodoo traditions. Many African Americns may subscribe to general American folkloric ideas, such as that copper has healing properties with respect to arthritis. but that does not make such beliefs hoodoo per se.

Espiritismo -- the Spanish-language word for Spiritualism -- comes in many forms or denominations in Latin America. There is Mexican Espiritismo, the Kardecian Spiritism based around the teachings of the French author Allen Kardec, Espiritismo Cruzado or Syncretic Spiritualism, and Santerismo which mingles Espiritismo with Santeria.

These variants were popagated in Latin America and share fewer roots than you might think with American Spiritualism, which derives generally from the 19th century Spiritualists and Spiritual Churches of the USA, and more particularly, with respect to hoodoo, from cross-pollination with the Spiritual Church Movement of the early 20h century originally led by Leafy Anderson, an African American woman born in Wisconsin.

There is a lot you could read on this subject to educate yourself. I would recommend the following books:

* "Paschal Beverly Randolph, a 19th Century African American Spiritualist and Sex Magician"
* "The Spirit of Black Hawk, a Mystery of Africans and Indians"
* "The Spiritual Churches of New Orleans"

In addition, this Association of Readers and Rootworkers web page will be of help to you and others who are trying to understand the term "espiritismo":

AIRR: Working Within the Spiritualist Tradition
http://readersandrootworkers.org/wiki/C ... _Tradition

That being said, there are MANY hoodoo spells involving coins, including copper coins and silver coins used in baths, as amulets, and for ingestion. In other words, it is not the "copperyness" of the coins, but the "coinyness" of the coins that is being utilized in hoodoo.

Also, the fact that your Espiritista informant specified a "beach water" bath points toward this rite coming from an island or coastal area, perhaps from a Spanish-speaking area on the Mexican or US Gulf Coast, or Cuba, where Espiritismo is practiced.

It would not be part of Mississippi or inland Georgia or Tennessee hoodoo or Spiritual Church practices. Big clue: The word "Espiritista" is not English!

.

Also, if folks always had to "fight in the same system" then Jesus could not have driven out demons and Elijah could not have bested four hundred and fifty priests of the Canaanite god Baal.

Please try to stick to questions about the practices of English-speaking American hoodoo doctors whose roots lie in the Southern United States. Thanks!!!

Unread post by **Lukianos** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:38 pm

Hi yoopylucks,

yoopylucks wrote:i guess i was thinking that you would have to fight in the same system always but thank you so much for that

In general it is far better to use the methods you know best and are most gifted with to deal with problems, regardless of the source of those problems. Even remedies which are fairly specific in their application (blue glass amulets against the evil eye, for example) often work on their specific thing irrespective of the source (the notion of the evil eye occurs in many cultures, but a Turkish blue glass amulet may be expected to work against the evil eye in any geographic location, and from any person of any nationality or background).

The cleansing, protection, reversing work, etc. that we discuss here is rooted in a specific tradition (Hoodoo, which is North American, predominantly Christian, primarily African-American with influences from Native American and European sources), and while these roots may limit the materials, prayers, and methods used by rootworkers, they do not limit the functionality of those works. To use a more concrete metaphor, an effective cleansing agent will clean one's floor, regardless of where the dirt came from.

Angelina2 · Unread post by **Angelina2** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:13 am

Hi all,

I am a Roman Catholic -- not a churchgoer, but more spiritual than religious.

I know Hoodoo is not a religion but does have certain Christian elements, so i am wondering if doing any Hoodoo rituals could possibly have any repercussions -- only because I was taught that by doing any form of magick would be altering God's will for us.

Since there is no Pagan or African religious god or goddess involved in petitioning and this is not a religion, but more about focusing on the power of the herbs that God gave to us and our own inner strength, do you feel this would be wrong?

When working a spell, is it okay to use God's name to ask for help using these oils, incense and herbs?

Sorry if i rambled a bit, but please let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Unread post by **J Simulcik** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:21 am

Angelina,

Hoodoo has more than "Christian elements"; most of its practitioners have been and are Christian, often Baptists.

There is a God in the Baptist religion. He is known as Jehovah, The Lord, or just plain God. Asking God's intercession, asking for things to happen if they are justified, is common in hoodoo, as is praying the Psalms.

Those hoodoo workers who work with Catholic Saints are also working similarly to the canonical Catholic Church, asking for the saint (who is associated with the cause, etc.) to plead the person's case to God.

Hope this helps.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:43 am

Angelina,

Hoodoo is known by sociologists, anthropologists, and ethnographers as Christio-Conjure. It is Christian.

It basically comes in three denominational variations:

* Protestant (embracing the vast majority of practitioners),
* Catholic (including a small minority of practitioners), and
* Spiritualist (including another small minority of practitioners).

People of other faiths have picked up elements of conjure, in the same way that some folks pick up elements of, say, Hindu deity worship, or Buddhist meditation, or Pagan seasonal celebrations -- but they do so without being fully socially, culturally, or emotionally connected to the tradition.

For more detailed information on this subject, please read my "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" page on the history and practice of hoodoo, here:

http://luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

For the way in which the Judeo-Christian Psalms are employed in magic, see this portion of the site operated by the Association of Independent Readers and Rootworkers:

http://readersandrootworkers.org/wiki/C ... _of_Psalms

Angelina2 · Unread post by **Angelina2** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:12 pm

Thank you J and Catherine, this clarified my thoughts!

Unread post by **Literarylioness** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:25 am

The best saint worker I know is my mother and she is a faithful Roman Catholic who goes to church regularly. She is the one who petitioned St. Bernadette for a girl (me) and St. Dymphna to be released from a mental hospital in 1963. She can tell you what saint to petition for any cause under the sun. She has elaborate altars that would rival any magic altar I have ever seen. She practices a form of magic, but does not call it that. She calls it asking for help and praying. This was my first taste of magic as a little girl.

My point is many people practice a form of spiritual work without calling it "magic."

Mary

Angelina2 · Unread post by **Angelina2** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:41 am

Thank you Mary!