LMHR Hour Chat Log May 17, 2006 Where Do Spells Come From, How Are They Spread? - Chat Log

[MissMichaele]

2006-7) May 17: Where Do Spells Come From and How Are They Spread?,
with catherine yronwode and Eoghan Ballard

CATHERINE YRONWODE: An obscure question that first occurred to me 25 years ago. "Well, where did your teacher get that spell?" -- hadn't paid attention before someone asked me. Won't necessarily make you a better worker but may lead you to value traditions more. Some sources:

o Family; the candle shop lady down the street; the coworker who had a family tradition.

o If you don't come from a magical culture, you'll probably be paying catch-up; talking to ppl with family traditions, but more likely from books. Even those w/ family traditions need to or like to pick things up from books.

o Where do the books come from? Mostly small publishers who keep them in print for years. The history of some has been lost -- for instance, all we know about _The Black and White Magic of Marie Laveau_ is that the author was … somebody else.

Many of most famous authors -- Henri Gamache, for instance -- were pseudonyms. Gamache got much of the 8th, 9th, and 10th Books of Moses from a 10th-century MS -- possibly in translation.

_Pow Wows_ based on the (spurious) _Albertus Magnus,_ which can be traced back to Agrippa and 5th- to 10th-century texts. Doll baby spells go back 4,000 years.

Conjures became enthusiastic readers of grimoires -- something students coming from outside the tradition are not prepared for.

Recent spellbooks are pretty pathetic -- "how to do spells with paper-clips and post-it notes" -- not necessarily a bad spell, but no provenance. Do you know the reputation of whoever authored the spell you're reading?

This is different from adapting old spells to modern materials -- dollbaby or name paper or sketch to photos. Further adaptation: *color photocopy* of photos.

DROPPED WEBCAST CONNECTION; RESUMED ON PHONE

EOGHAN BALLARD: There is strong undertier of African elements, as well as European ones, of course. A lot of them overlap, especially in the domain of sympathetic magic. Foot track magic, use of powders, cemetery work most obviously African. There are parallels elsewhere for some of these.

If we were to categorize spells according to origin (lots of fun as well as good methodology), we'll have some trouble.

For instance, where did black cat spells come from? BMAC? Crossroads work? Which elements are European, which African?

The real question is "HOW do spells 'come from'?" Tracing this will reveal the process of adaptations. Risky to assume that similarity of source-culture belief to diasporic belief means proof of origin. Anthropologists speak of "meta-model of cultural survival" -- traditions tend *reinvent themselves* when they are lost; not only belief and practice, but also habits of *thought.*

I think formative model of hoodoo is Bantu -- props to European and NA elements and contributions from written word, though -- certainly can't ignore cultural landscape of North America. No culture ever operated in a vacuum.

For many African traditions, we can find European counterparts, and vice versa.

Asking "how?" is less binary than "from where?".

Hallmark of Bantu philosophic & religious practice is RELIGIOUS REVIVAL -- ABRUPT CHANGE AND REVISION, a cleansing of the culture and revival of practice with NEW FORMS -- but still following the same essential worldview -- which includes the NEED for periodic cleansing and revival.

And of course, this is a hallmark of American Christianity also - *much* less common in Europe.

How does one practice become accepted while another doesn't? Why do we have BMAC, lodestones, black cat bone, and not the bonfire dances they have in Europe? Things that conform to institutional notions about how the world works are more likely to survive. And hoodoo, after all, is not spoken of as an Irish-American, German-American, or Native American practice.

How are traditions passed down through broken lineages?

MISS CAT: Yes, very interested in why some things survive and others don't. Why no gallows magic or bonfire dances? I've written (in course book) about why bat nuts, feng shui mirrors, etc., got into hoodoo. Obviously it's partly about resonance. In these two cases, cultural exoticism is also a factor.

EOGHAN: Yes, and why wholesale adoption of Catholic imagery in Congo ca 1400. Similar practices in native culture before missionaries came. And it was a culture that adapted freely from outside influences and frequently *repackaged* outward forms of traditional practices, beliefs and worldview. Same principle is operating in hoodoo and in the revival movement in Southern Christianity.

MISS CAT: There have always been white rootworkers, though they were a minority. Some came in for cultural exoticism; but black rootworkers also were exoticizers: "Those feng shui mirrors look really cool, let's do that."

EOGHAN: But Congo used mirrors on nkisi for many, many years. Also, Congo people often seek out diviners from far away, partly to make sure they're not involved in local politicking. But there's also a sense that a traveling professional is *better*: familiarity breeds contempt.

NAGASIVA YRONWODE: Cultural exoticism: Look for a book called _Net of Magic_ -- describes Indian glorification of European stage magicians.

MISS CAT: Magic workers have a sense of exoticism about them anyway; cultural exoticism is a *metaphor* for that. One of the earliest description of a rootworker was of a man dressed in deliberately patched clothing. (Cat, please supply source for description of hoodoo worker that the "drummer" saw. Was it from Jefferson's book?)

EOGHAN: Patched clothing is a feature of African diviners' regalia.

Now, re our favorite con man, DeLaurence: he would bring things from America to the Caribbean for sale, and vice versa. In Trinidad, which has large Hindu population, there has been Hindu admixture with local African-based traditions. Kali worship very visible there. I'm sure this influenced much of what DeLaurence brought back to US.

MISS CAT: One of the biggest herb suppliers was Joseph Meyer (company still operating). He was very conscious of folkloric value of herbs, conscientiously imported (through Morton Neuman) magical herbs which would have died out in US because there were no other good sources.

EOGHAN: Let's keep perspective: strong trade route Africa/Brazil/Caribbean/North America & back, dating from slave trade, also route for importing merchandise for freed slaves to sell; including regular trade in African plants and other (religious) goods. Cultural isolation is mostly the vacuum of our own ignorance.

MISS CAT: People don't understand the past through *its own documents*, but only as it was romanticized for them; alleged isolation was romanticized. Cultural isolation is mostly the vacuum of our own ignorance.

EOGHAN: Yet centuries later, many African-American are ignorant of the Afro-*Caribbean* origins of their own families. A substantial segment of the Florida AA population has Cuban ancestry. A lot of the Cubans who came over weren't exactly white.

SINDY: My 1 grandmother was Lebanese, came in thru Louisiana. I found out she was a fortune-teller who came from a family of merchants. I've wondered if she brought her knowledge over or picked it up here to smooth her dealings with AA customers!

MISS CAT: Blue glass is Middle Eastern element of hoodoo. Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Israel, Arab countries -- if they hadn't entered hoodoo, bottle trees would only exist there. Scholars didn't consider this seriously until the 1970's or '80's. "Haint blue" house trim is so obviously North African.

EOGHAN: Central African, too.

MISS CAT: But what is "Sub-Saharan African" anyway? Cultural demarcation is so gradual.

EOGHAN: I'm not completely convinced of cultural diffusion theory. Probably both diffusion and independent discovery.

The answer to Sindy's question is probably Yes. Combining what they know with what other people know and figuring it out how to make it work is what people *do.*

Once again, diffusion tends to follow lines of similarity.

SINDY: Mom also told me, "Your [other] grandma used to see Miss Louisa -- a sharecropper's wife -- every week."

MISS CAT: Hyatt records (I think) Zorro the Mentalist, who gave *percentages* of which people -- and of which races -- believed what!

DARA: Several other informants did so too.

EOGHAN: Zorro insisted on exact numbers.

MISS CAT: A mentalist is a cold reader. One of the ways they work is on percentages. Books on cold reading lay these out. "40 percent of men have had an accident peeing themselves while in grade school; 90% of men had pets as children," etc. A mentalist need to know these things so as to design your script. No, they don't make these figures up.

EOGHAN: Depends on accuraMISS CAT of those sources, too. He's also picking items that have strong emotional pull.

SIVA: are there different ways of spreading spells?

MISS CAT: Word of mouth; watching family routine. Some clients ask questions about spells to see if I'll confirm what their family did. Others want my help retrieving traditions they have lost.

Don't forget the 30 or 40 books that were sold in every candle shop -- pretty much the same books everywhere; there wasn't any Llewellyn pumping out new books every year.

EOGHAN: Unlike today, with explosion of publishing, it was harder to get a book published and made better sense to keep a book in print.

Regional variations would spread across regional divides -- via traveling rootworkers, usually workers with powerful reputations. People would copy them.

MISS CAT: People also sold their recipes -- Madam Collins sold recipe to Hyatt (he turned off recorder while making the deal).

When I was young, a good candle shop would give you a simple recipe to try at home. Sonny Boy -- a big influence on me -- used to give out a free booklet of spells with orders. Egypt Candle Shop used to give out flyers -- a fresh spell every month.

SINDY: Where did you get that black walnut spell?

MISS CAT: From a woman in a conjure shop -- but I've seen it in Mickaharic. I *think* his book had come out *just* before she taught it to me.

DARA: I learned it form the NA people I worked with.

MISS CAT: I think she had it in her family. Mickaharic's version was different. Black walnuts indicated a NA source. Mickaharic. Says "walnuts."

EOGHAN: This shows the kind of alteration that a spell goes through in moving from rural to urban setting. I bet Mickaharic had access to NA herbal info.

MP [via chatroom]: How can one avoid trivializing by exoticizing the culture while playing catch up? (nice paraphrase, Dara!)

MISS CAT: MAKE FRIENDS IN THE CULTURE. You'll find friendly people who are willing to treat you like a person. Race relations now are so much nicer & easier than they ever were in the past. Sure, you'll hit a brick wall sometimes -- "you shouldn't be doing hoodoo" but there are racists everywhere.

EOGHAN: I say the same thing. Was recently talking to a mixed-race person very involved in a lot of African things, wanted to know why *I* was listening to African music. I explained: long-time interest, married to a nonwhite Cuban woman. In other words -- *Why not??* I'm a citizen of the modern world. I don't select the circles I travel in based on my ethnicity. Rather the reverse. There's a whole damn world out there and it's gorgeous!

MISS CAT: Make enough friends that you can see the current runs BOTH ways. Two of my three Wiccan employees are black. Anybody can be anything these days. The barriers are breaking down. Be part of letting everyone be what they want to be.

EOGHAN: Be honest and be open!

MISS CAT: The more people know about my cultural background -- Jewish, mostly -- the safer my culture is.

[MissMichaele]

While perusing the notes on the Hoodoo Rootwork Hour of last May 17, I
noted:


> > MISS CAT: ... Most recipes [for Hotfoot powder include] dead
spiders, ground lizard --
> > stinging or verminous animals.

My son has a pet tarantula, which just molted. As you may know,
tarantulas have a painful but not lethal bite.

He is saving this first molt as a curio (the amaze-your-friends kind,
not the magical kind), but I dare say he might be open to sending
future molts to conscientious spiritual workers for, well, call it
justice work. He's a real Golden Rule kinda guy.

Michaele / Mother Lode

[catherineyronwode]

This chatlog was made for the ages by Miss Michaele. The audio file is long gone, but Miss Michaele took notes! Thank you, Miss Micahele!