Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Please report copyright theft here: Eliminate thieves and help maintain the online spiritual community as a place of trust and respect.
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Adam Hymans
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Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Adam Hymans » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:21 pm

MacQuillar's book called, "Rootwork" looks good. She references you in her articles. I think she has some very interesting ideas. I don't know how I feel about certain wicca/new-age-like influences that are the hallmark of llewelyn and like publications, but they are interesting reads nonetheless.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:51 pm

So few people bother to reference *anyone* in these cut-and-paste plagiarism days. It's nice when someone references me. I can appreciate that. It warms my heart.

I confess that after John Shreve (a.k.a. Doktor Snake) grabbed stuff from my web site and ran it as the words of his supposed hoodoo guru "Earl" (and admitted to me in email that he had done so!), i decided that for the sake of my blood pressure i should stop reading other people's mass-market books on hoodoo.

Unfortunately, i saw a book by Gerina Dunwich on herbs at a local book store that i thought might be nice, opened it up, and found an entire chapter on hoodoo that was cribbed from my web site without credit. That didn't do me any good.

Then i was at a friend's house and saw a book on the use of mushrooms as psychedelics and in magic and it had a picture of a very rare Hungarian postcard that i have at my site in which a chimney sweep boy is scattering poisonous mushrooms around in the snow

( http://www.luckymojo.com/chimneysweep.html )

and i thought, "Wow! That's odd. This guy has a copy of the same rare Hungarian postcard i do!" Then i turned the page and found another rare postcard from my site, of a leprechaun policeman with poisonous mushrooms

( http://www.luckymojo.com/postcards.html )

and i thought, "Wow! That is REALLY REALLY weird. Such rare postcards -- and he has BOTH of them!" And then i checked the text and the light went on. The guy had ripped off portions of my site to print in his book on mushrooms.

So i try to stay away from reading popular books on magic. I just do my own thing, talk to people, and remain much, much calmer.

I may be turning into an old codgerette, but ... well, there are worse things to be.

Yep. I am going to become an old codgerette. I am going to play old Memphis Jug Band music and keep my trap shut about the internet's influence on occultism.

That loud "SNAP!" you heard just then was the sound of me shutting my trap.

cat (and growling softly) yronwode

Hoodoo and Blues Lyrics --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/blues.html
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Branson
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Branson » Tue Dec 09, 2003 1:39 pm

>I confess that after John Shreve (a.k.a. Doktor Snake)
>grabbed stuff from my web site and ran it as the words of
>his supposed hoodoo guru "Earl"

Well, that explains why I found the book fun (got it remaindered a while
back). At least he has the taste to steal well...

Branson

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by urth_devi » Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:10 pm

Hi cat,

You are referenced properly in the Tyannah Maquillar book.
It is concise, but very informative and quite good.

You are also referenced in Ray T. Malrborough's "Mysterys of Hoodoo".
I don't think the book is all that accuruate; but maybe Louisiana
hoodoo is different from the hoodoo I grew up with.

Connie

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by mamaambota2003 » Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:35 pm

Cat, in your instructions for John the Conqueror Oil you say to color
it yellow or purple. Do you use regular old food colors for this?

Also, in making up my own spells and spellkits for sale, I'm having
difficulty knowing my boundaries.

Take a Bath. Write a spellpaper. Anoint and burn a candle. Put
together a Mojo. Those are pretty standard steps.

At what point do you consider us to be plagerising (is that a word?)
your work?

How different do my spell kits need to be? I'm sorry if
this sounds stupid, but I want to develop my own kits as well as
selling yours. I don't want to "steal" your stuff... But some of
your stuff comes from the Hyatt material, as I am reading through the
books..

I also find similar material on the Miller's Rexall
website.

Help? Guidelines?

Ambota

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:12 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "mamaambota2003" <OakPsts@a...> wrote:

> Cat, in your instructions for John the Conqueror Oil you say to color
> it yellow or purple. Do you use regular old food colors for this?

No, most food dyes are water based and will mot mix with oil. You need
an oil-based dye. Try an art supply store.

> Also, in making up my own spells and spellkits for sale, I'm having
> difficulty knowing my boundaries.
>
> Take a Bath. Write a spellpaper. Anoint and burn a candle. Put
> together a Mojo. Those are pretty standard steps.

Indeed they are.

> At what point do you consider us to be plagerising (is that a word?)
> your work? How different do my spell kits need to be? I'm sorry if
> this sounds stupid, but I want to develop my own kits as well as
> selling yours. I don't want to "steal" your stuff... But some of
> your stuff comes from the Hyatt material, as I am reading through the
> books.. I also find similar material on the Miller's Rexall
> website. Help? Guidelines?

This is not a stupid question at all. Let me answer in a few parts.

1) Hoodoo spells are, in large part, common knowledge because they are as much a part of our culture as recipes for baking powder bisquits or apple pie. However, a cookbook containing such recipes can be copyrighted in the name of the author who assembles the work in a certain, particular, identifiable format and using unique wording.

The Hyatt folk-magic collection (the oral histories collected by Harry M. Hyatt from the 1930s through the 1970s) is copyright material, and although Hyatt's right to copyright it may be disputed (because he never got signed releases from the people he quoted verbatim) his copyright still stands and will stand unless decided elsewise in a court of law.

Hyatt left his his literary estate and hence his copyrights to UCLA. You may quote short passages from his books in a discussion about hoodoo (or about Hyatt) because this is "fair usage," but you may not publish his material intact. If you do, you will sued by UCLA for copyright infringement.

2) Go back and look at the lesson where i summarized a few of the spells using Graveyard Dirt that Hyatt had collected.

A) Notice that i wrote everything in my own words.

B) Notice that i fully credited Harry Hyatt and his informants
and mentioned the title of his books as my source.

This is acceptable academic and commercial practice. It is right legally and it is right morally because it is courteous to the one whose work you are utilizing. It is not plagiarism.

Also note that not a single one of the spell kits i sell is taken from spells that Hyatt collected, so you can't say that since i got them from him you can get them from me -- because i did not get them from him. Hyatt collected rural hoodoo and abjured any informants who made too liberal use of "drugstore" goods. My spell kits arise out of my own experience in 1960s - 1980s urban hoodoo.

My recipes do not come from the Hyatt interviews. My recipes do not come from Miller's Rexall.

My labels do not come from the Hyatt interviews. My labels do not come from Miller's Rexall.

My ad copy does not come from the Hyatt interviews. My ad copy does not come from Miller's Rexall.

3) Plagiarism may be a word for word copy or it may be a copy that contains a few changed words. It may consist of either of two different offenses:

A) Copying another author's writing without permission and not crediting it or citing it. (If the copying is verbatim (word for word) and the quotation is extensive, this is also copyright infringement, which is a serious legal offense).

B) Copying another's writing without permission and adding your own name or store name as the credited author. (If the copying is verbatim (word for word) and the quotation is extensive, this is also copyright infringement.)

Generally speaking, in casual (not legal) terminology, plagiarism is distinguished from copyright infringement by the fact that it is notalways word-for-word the same.

Here are two samples of plagiarism, for illustration purposes only. You will probably recognize at once the source i am plagiarizing in this first example:

PLAGIARISM SAMPLE #1

"When i was a young woman, growing up in the Lower East Side, i had a dream. I dreamed that that one day on the streets of Manhattan, the daughters of former garment workers and the daughters of former garment factory owners would be able to sit down together at a table of sisterhood. I dreamed that one day the state of New York, a sterile state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, would be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I dreamed that i would have four children and that my children would one day live in a city where they would not be judged by the cut of their clothes but by the content of their character."

(see the original at http://www.mecca.org/~crights/dream.html )

PLAGIARISM EXAMPLE #2

Original: "Here is a simple sexual love spell that you can do at home using only a red candle, a red rose, two clove buds, and some perfume ... [...] ... and as you finish, make a wish upon a star."

Plagiarism: "This simple, sexy love spell uses only a red candle, a red rose, two clove buds, and your choice of perfume ... [...] ... and when you finish, wish upon a star."

4) Copyright infringement mirrored to your web site will result in your web site being shut down and may result in yourself being sued. Copyright infringement in a book will result in you and your publisher being sued. I have had to contact web hosts a number of times since putting my site online because certain people, wishing to attract to themselves the readership that was coming to me because of my hard word on developing my web site, had hijacked whole pages of my writing and had placed them at their sites. They would change the background colour or drop my internal links, but everything was word-for-word from my site. Sometimes the site owners are not aware that my material has been plagiarized to their site because someone else has uploaded it to a free web-board area.

In all cases like this, i first send a polite and friendly letter asking for the page to be removed. It is not a legal "cease and desist" letter, just a note from me as the author asking that i wish there to be no duplication of my material or mirroring from my site. Most folks say, "Ooops, sorry" and take down the copyright infringement. But sometimes people fight me on it.

One woman replied to my first note, "Get off my ass, you bitch" and another insisted that "Nothing on the web can be coopyrighted." I tried to reason with them but got nowhere, so i had to complain to their isps -- and their sites were taken down. They each then changed isps and placed the material they had copied from my site online a second time at new URLS. I complained to their new isps and their sites were taken down again. Eventually they got he message: Nowadays when i do google searches on strings of type from my site, they no longer result in these womens' pages coming up alongside mine in the search results.

A while later i joined the hoodoo elist run by Tamara Graves (siren_noir) and i noticed that people were posting entire web pages of mine and uploading them to the groups' archives. This was a copyright infringement, as i had not given my permission to copy the material. I gently asked Tamara to remove the material and to merely list links to my pages, if the stuff was that interesting, and she became quite angry at me. I remained polite (i actually liked her and hoped that she would like me in return) but she blew up and kicked me off the elist. I have no idea if my material is still online in the files or archives of the hoodoo list because she has forbidden me to join it again and also rejected siva's attempt to join it. In the end, if i have the dogged persistence i know i have, i will get another person to join the hoodoo list and check out the archives for me to see if the copyright infringing material was removed.

In my opinion, people who persist in copyright infringement after they are asked nicely to stop it and who become furious when asked nicely to take infringing web pages down are borderline sociopathic. This is just an opinion, but it is a sincere opinion and i stick by it.

5) The labels used on product packages are trademarked. A trademark is literally a mark or sign or design used in trade or commerce. You cannot use the Coca Cola logo on your own brand of soda pop or you will be sued because the trademark is controlled by Coca Cola. You cannot copy my graphic label designs for your products because LMCCo. controls the trademarks.

Not only is copying labels a trademark violation, if the labels contain extended sections of text -- as for instance on my spell kits and herb labels -- copying the labels is also a copyright infringement. Trademark violation and copyright infringement will result in a lawsuit.

Look at the bottom of each of my spell kits. See the copyright notice? This is a warning not to copy my work.

6) If a person doesn't know the material well enough to describe it in his or her own words, it is my sincere opinion that he or she should not be trying to design spell kits or write label text. If a person has to put a word-for-word copy of someone else's material in their computer and then change a word at a time here and a word at a time there -- as i did with the Martin Luther King Jr. speech cited above -- then they are guilty of plagiarism.

7) I wish the world were peopled exclusively by loving and kindly beings who lived by the Golden Rule, but it is not, so i find it valuable to protect myself from theft. I am a crafty one. There are certain spells and mojo bag combinations at my web site that are "ringers." They are, in other words, entirely and completely NOT authentic and were entirely and completely made up by me out of whole cloth with the sole purpose of trapping and catching plagiarists. They sound very authentic and old-timey, because i worded them that way, but they are not, and i can prove it. These "ringer" spells and mojo hands have already trapped and caught four plagiarists, two in books and two at web sites. For obvious reasons i will not reveal them here.

I hope this answers your questions. I have tried to be as fair and gentle as i can be, despite the fact that plagiarism, copyright infringement, and trademark violation are emotionally fraught issues for me, since they strike at the heart of my livelihood.

By the way, my grandfather was a trademark and copyright lawyer. This may explain my intransigence on the subject of intellectual property theft.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:52 pm

Just a brief follow-up to two threads today -- copyright law extends back only so far. Prior to 1976, material ad to be actively copyrighted to be protected. Nowadays its very existence affords passive protection and the assumption that author / composer / artist who cretaed it controls the copyrights unless otherwise contractually agreed.

This means that old blues songs -- which were rarely copyrighted correctly or had their copyrights renewed -- are often in the public domain.

Not all of them are public domain, though. In the case of Robert Johnson, for instance, his son Claude Johnson was recently found to be the legitimate copyright holder (albeit an illegitimate heir as he was born out of wedlock) and is financially quite well off now. While Claude's case was on, i was not the only one lighting candles for his success. It seemed so right that he get the money.

The reason i mentioned Yazoo records is that they have a good reputation for paying royalties on old songs, even imporperly copyrighted ones, when the heirs are known. This is not true of all companies that re-release old blues.

Sorry to be so long-winded about this, but i believe that financial success is the just due of artistically, musically, and intellectually creative people as much as it is the just due of the beautiful or the athletic. No one thinks twice about paying a great salary to a clothes model or a linebacker and folks always keep their names associated with their deeds, but somehow they think it is fair to rip off a writer or a singer for money and to remove his or her name as well.

Okay, enough on that...

Like i said, my grandfather Theodor Erlanger was a copyright and trademark lawyer. I grew up thinking about this stuff.

When my grandfather escaped from the Nazis, he came to live in America, and after WWII ended, he still retained many of his old clients and represented them in the USA. One of the labels he represented was a brand of German wine called Schwartze Katze -- Black Cat wine!!! The legend was that a winemaker in the town of Zell went into his celler to test his wines and found a black cat sitting on one barrel and guarding it, hissing and spitting -- and this turned out to be the best wine, and so the blend of ingredients that went into it became known as Zeller Schwartze Katze. See the town of Zell where Black Cat wine is made at http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe ... o17427.htm
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:28 pm

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "catherine yronwode" <cat@l...> wrote:

> > In the case of Robert
> Johnson, for instance, his son Claude Johnson was recently found
> to be the legitimate coopyright holder (albeit an illegitimate
> heir as he was born out of wedlock) and is not financially
> quite well off now.

That shoulkd have read "copyright holder" and "is financially quite
well off now." He has, in fact, collected back royalties he was cheated
of.

Oh, and a personal aside to Samantha -- i got your Homework #5 and was
suitably impressed by the intensity of your work and the petiton. It
smelled great, too! Thank you!

cat

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by sherel16 » Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:33 am

ok, ok I won't burn the cd I borrowed of yours.:-)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Branson » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:50 pm

Don't know just how this fits in, but it's something I've been keeping in mind.

"When African-Americans born in the 19th or early 20th century told interviewers that they or anyone they knew had "sold their soul to the devil at the crossroads..."

A friend of mine is Liberian. While she is Christian, her husband was not, and was a member of the Poro Society. They spent a good deal of time in the countryside though they lived in capitol.

Now she speaks of all the spirits that the people worked with as "devils" but there doesn't seem to be any tinge of the Christian Devil; she uses the word just like a description -- no emotional content.

I had thought that the Elegba = Devil thing was an Americanism, but listening to her, it looks like it might be an African distinction... Makes me wonder just what is at the heart of the meaning.

Branson

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:10 pm

Africans call certain spirits "devils" the same way (but for a different reason) that Chinese people call their afterword or spirit money Hell Money and the ruler of the world of the afterlife, "The Hell Emperor" -- because they were given these essentially foreign words as descriptors by uptight, prejudiced Anglo-phones and although they adopted the words as accurate translations (which they are not!), they did not adopt or perhaps even fully understand the embedded connotations of the words in English.

It is not an Americanisation per se. Also, be aware that among early US slaves, more often than not the entity in question would have been the Congo Nbumbanzila (a.k.a. Pomba Gira in the Brazilian diaspora) rather than West African Legba or Ellegua. Eoghan Ballard (on this elist) can explain better than i can about the Congo dieties who were displaced and renamed when the King of Kongo was converted to Catholicism under Portuguese influence, and how one of the three d]chief deities became "the devil" at the outset of the slave-trading era while still in Africa.

I recommend that you also study the nature of the Devil (Der Teufel, Krampus, Perkel, etc.) in Europe to get a better grasp on the subject of wild nature gods and why they become "the Devil" when people convert to Christianity. They are not Satan, the Adversary-Angel of Judaism. They are outsider-gods, so to speak. See this page on Der Teufel at my site for starters: http://www.luckymojo.com/devil.html -- and then try to see how this Teufel concept -- far from obsolete among Anglo-Germanic slave-owners -- fit right in with African concepts of an outsider, nature deity.

But... this thread is about copyright law, not religion, and folklore is not subject to trademark or copyright -- only specific way of telling it is.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:12 am

Hi, i'm glad to answer this in public, in case anyone else is curious.

First, THANK YOU for wanting to cite my writing.

Second, authorship: If what you are citing is a Lucky W Amulet Archive page or a Hoodoo in Theory and Practice page or a Sacred Sex page or a Sacred Landscape page -- if it has my copyright on it -- then i wrote it and i would prefer that the credit to be in my name, with the name of the company as publisher, ala your example #2 above).

Third, date of publication: If you want the actual date of publication for any of my web opages, you can "view page source" and look at the creation date. A number of them have the same creation date (01/12/96) as they were pieces of writing in my hard drive -- rough draft fragments for the book on amulets (Lucky W) and the book on hoodoo (HITAP) that i decided to throw into an html template and upload over the course of about a week; other pages will have later creation dates or even several revision dates. For example, the Alligator Teeth page has a source code that includes the line
<!-- created on 01/12/96 at 23:37:05 -->
and that is the actual publication date.

Fourth, my name: you can first-letter capitalize it. Most people do. It's just a hand-writing style that got transferred over to typesetting and then to electronic media. I write my name that way, but have no great attachment to what others do. As a typesetter, i think it looks strange to see my name in lower case amidst other names cited in upper/lower. But some people like to leave it lower case to show that they like me or enjoy my style, and that's fine too. I'm totally at ease with anything anyone does with it, as long as they spell it correctly. :-)

Thanks for thinking enough of my work to use is as reference, and if you have a spare copy of the article, i would love to have it for my collection.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Maria Montgomery » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:04 pm

I recognized text from this page from the Lucky Mojopage on Hot Foot
Powder. It seems to be a pretty blatant cut'n'paste.

http://pagan.onestarrynight.com/index.p ... ot_powder/

(Thanks! I am collecting the plagiarism information into one file and will -- when time allows -- be making a web page in whiuch all the plagiarists will be named and cursed. So i shall save that one with the rest -- and thank you for sending it along. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Mike Rock » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:03 pm

On 10/24/05, Maria Montgomery <mmontgomery@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I recognized text from this page from the Lucky Mojopage on Hot Foot
> Powder. It seems to be a pretty blatant cut'n'paste.
>
> http://pagan.onestarrynight.com/index.p ... ot_powder/

That link just appears to be a comment form.

mike

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http://www.mike-rock.com

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by ravenbasslady » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:05 pm

I went to the site, and I can't find the page?

I didn't see anything plagarized, it's all Wiccan
stuff.

Puzzled,

Erica

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Auntie Sindy Todo » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:54 pm

Can I just say this is the most ridiculous web site I've EVER seen.
Yuk...what a sick color combo. Sorry, it just visually really bugged
me...not to mention the plagiarism. However, it did give me a good laugh
which we could all use right now to simply lighten our load! Say Amen!-xx
Sindy
Auntie Sindy Todo, HRCC Graduate #0564

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Maria Montgomery » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:02 pm

"Erica (Raven) Branch-Butler" <golanv1@yahoo.com> wrote:I went to the site, and I can't find the page?

I didn't see anything plagarized, it's all Wiccan stuff.

Puzzled,

Erica

--- Maria Montgomery <mmontgomery@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well it was there, Now it's not. I was saerching for other people's Hot Foot Powder recipes that they might have posted to the internet, just for fun. that's how I stumbled upon it.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by luckyhoodoo » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:10 pm

hmmm....wonder if it's a fellow student who quickly took it down.

-Jason

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by ravenbasslady » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:37 am

More likely, someone who wanted to start some drama.

Raven

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by sistaword » Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:23 am

ok I think this might be the site... or another i searched on line
and noticed that both the pagan site that mike was talking about and
this site had some "bos" for contact info... wonder if that means
anything.

http://www.crystal-forest.com/SPELLhotfoot.html

cidalia

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Maria Montgomery » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:04 pm

Interesting. The site I referred to had the really nauseas green background with autumn leaves, This is another one. curiouser and curiouser.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Mike Rock » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:04 pm

> http://www.crystal-forest.com/SPELLhotfoot.html

This doesnt look like any of cat's writing that I have ever seen.. and
I wonder how can hotfoot powder be black or white with all the red
pepper in it? Mine is always reddish, the sulfur can even make it look
orangish.

The rite given is very very (Lle)Wiccan.. I mean all that grunting and
groaning and emoting over hotfoot powder? I just mix the shit up and
sprinkle it down and tell it to do its thing and it just works.

Yeah I guess you need all that Super-Saiyan power-up stuff if you
don't have actual hotfoot powder and instead have white or black dyed
wood shavings. That's why having authentic ingredients is so key.

Reading over that kind of made me laugh though, thanks for posting it. :-D

You can really tell the difference after a while between the
experienced spellcasters and the amateurs.

blessings

mike

--

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(Regarding the page cited as containing plagiarism from my book HITAP:

Have you all noticed that almost everyone who has gone to the site has seen a different page?

Some saw a "comment" page -- some place where the reader is encouraged to fill out a comment form and post it. Others saw my writing. Others saw none of my writing and noteing about Hot Foot Powder at all except in the page's title. Others saw something about Hot Foot Powder that was not mine. When i went there, i saw neither my own writing NOR anything about Hot Foot Powder.

I suspect that the author has changed the page a number of times. I consider this odd, and i do note that someone here opined that these changes might indicate that the author is a student here and had read that we were looking into the page.

I don't suppose the true story is going to be resolved without some detective work, and i am too busy with other projects to do that work myself right now. It is sufficiently pleasing to me that the page no longer contains my writing (which i assume it did, as others saw it there).

Thanks to all those who commented. I appreciate your support of my work. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by luckyhoodoo » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:04 pm

re: http://www.crystal-forest.com/SPELLhotfoot.html

Checked out the site and there is no plagiarism on the subject of "Hot
Foot". In fact, it looks like the author is used to using a brand that is
not-quite genuine, since she mentions how "good-smelling" it is.

-Jason

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by ravenbasslady » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:07 pm

Cidalia, did you read the content of the link you
posted? The page is Wiccan, not Hoodoo, and does not
have a recipe for Hot Foot Powder, nor any of the
material from Luckmojo.com on it. I'm not convinced
that the person who wrote the spell n(caled the Back
to Iowa Spell) has any real knowledge of Hoodoo, or
how Hot Foot Powder works, other than to lay it in the
path of your enemy. She also mentions people like
Rush Limbaugh, and Z. Budapest.

Not plagarized from Cat's site at all.

Puzzled,

Erica

(As noted previously, the site has changed a number of times over the course of the past week -- different colours and different content have been reported by various people who went to the URL. In any case, what WAS there (whether nauseous green, leaves, a book of shadows, sweet-smelling Hot Foot, my Hot Foot page, a comment form -- or whatever -- is not what i saw: i saw a more or less blank yellow page with no mention of Hot Foot except in the title, with a comment form. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by marta cornelio » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:26 pm

> (As noted previously, the site has changed a number of times
> over the course of the past week -- different colours and
> different content have been reported by various people who
> went to the URL. --cat)

I did go back to read it again and you right it didn't look like cat's webpage on hot foot powder. It definitely is wiccan. it was pretty funny.

peace

cidalia

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by queenladyt » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:21 pm

Cat,

Someone named hoodoorootworker has posted a spell from your book and is selling it on ebay item #5663101141. It is the Love me or die spell as told in your HHRM book they have even taken part of the story to sell this spell.

Just thought you would like to know.

Peace and Love,

queenladyt

(Thank you for the help. I have sent the following note to ebay: "Items 5663101141 , 5663371541 , 5663371665 are three iterations of a Love Me or Die Hoodoo Spell and all contain a copyright violation from my book Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic, published in 2002. They also contain identity theft, as the narrator of the anecdote quoted in the product description (called I -- first person pronoun) was actually ME (ebay identity catyronwode), not the seller (ebay identity hoodoorootworker), and the seller is posing as me, telling a story i published about my own life and exeriences on Maxwell Street in the 1960s. If you want proof that the book cited exists, look it up at amazon -- it is already in its second printing. My anecdote, quoted verbatim by the fraudulent seller, is on pages 105-106 of the book. I want the item de-listed and the seller informed that identity theft and copyright violation are against the law and against ebay policies. Thank you. catherine yronwode" --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Honeybeelight » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:38 pm

--I was doing a panel on love potions. Since it's a literary conference, it very quickly gets to
"Oh, love spells are all evil, rob the free will blah blah blah." But they don't know anything
about them, and they kind of assume that all love spells are love potions. I blew their
assumptions to smithereens and cited Cat and her web site twice, once on the Intranquility
Spell and once on the goofer ball "Love Me or Die" spell. Also mentioned putting "personal
concerns" in the food and drink. My gosh, they freaked, you'd think they never heard of this
before ;)

This is an audience of mainly women. What do you want to bet that at some point during
their lives, *most* of them have wanted to do a love spell or even tried to do a love spell but
didn't know how?

Silliness.

Thought that Cat and the rest of the class would get a kick out of this.

Melissa

PS: At the book stall, someone is selling some sorry little book of love spells. I saw them
and snorted, "those won't work." Someone overheard me and said, "yeah, well, of course,
love spells. . . " "No," I said, "I mean, THOSE won't work."

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by melchizedeky1 » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:10 am

I would pose this to the group. Do anybody knows where I can purchase Male and Female candle making Mold.. ( Candle Making Mold ) for Male and Female Image Candle.? I though it would be a great fun making my own Image ( Male and/or Female Candle ). I would like to buy the casting Mold to make this.

B. Banjo # 883 ( LLL )

(I know of no place that sells generic candle moulds for esoteric products that are not protected by copyright. We have commissioned our own sculptures for masters and then had master moulds made from those, and then the re-useable moulds were pulled from those masters. It's not cheap, and requires tooling up for mass manufacture. That is why most of the moulds are protected by copyright. --cat)
HR Student #0883

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Mike R2 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:50 am

Dear melchizedeky1,

You can buy a figure candle and get plaster at any art supply or hobby
shop and make your own mold.

If you use clay and then bake the clay, the wax will melt away and
leave you with just the mold. Be sure to make the mold in two
pieces...

mike
http://www.mike-rock.com

(No, Mike -- you cannot do that if the original candle design is protected by copyright -- and most of them are. Search the fastcase law archives for records of Candle Corp of America (e.g. Indio Products) being sued by a candle maker whose glass mould shapes they stole -- and losing the case, and having to go back and design their own moulds. Such is life in this world of commerce and creativity -- and as a writer, graphic designer, and comissioner of scultptures, i am right glad of it, too. And remember, copyright does not simply protect the rights-holder against duplicates being made for sale -- it also protects the rights-holder against copies being made, period. That is why it is called the COPY right, the right to copy. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Maryam » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:31 pm

I don't know where you can get the Adam/Eve type molds for candles,
but I have seen molds similar to the clothed 'Lady' and 'Gentleman'
candles on eBay, as well as some Bride & Groom molds, skulls, and
crucifixes. But it is eBay and sometimes what's there one day isn't
there another day. Hope this helps a little, though! :)

Maryam Rasoulian #780

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Rebecca » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:36 pm

Cat if it is okay, I googled for the molds and found this site that has one version of them:

http://www.spiritcrafts.net/wipath.html

Rebecca Bordes
Student #512

(Yes, Rebecca, they do have moulds -- which are unqiquely their own designs. This demonstrates perfectly what i was referring to in my earlier response to Mike Rock about the copyrighting of such images.

Compare these three male figure candles:

http://tinyurl.com/gxqps
http://tinyurl.com/kx3og
http://tinyurl.com/klwtp

or these two vulva image candles:

http://tinyurl.com/htqtq
http://tinyurl.com/hxlxp

(The Spirit Crafts company sells moulds, which they allow let anyone use to make candles, but by the way they have written text over the photos, it is evident that they are not letting other companies copy and sell identical moulds. The other two companies sell candles, but no moulds. Each sculpture is different than the others, a different image. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by ravenbasslady » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:40 pm

Question;

Do the copyright law apply if the person is only making candles for
their own use, and not selling the candles made from the molds?

(Yes, technically it does. That is why your movie DVDs come with an FBI warning on them. It is a violation of copyright law to copy anything which the rights holder forbids you to copy. The rights holder may choose to allow certain usages (home use, for instance) while barring other usages (sales) -- or may not choose to litigate cases of home use or small sales operations, but choose to litigate large cases. However, the rights are those of the rights holder and it is the rights holder who decides which rights are being purchased by the buyer -- right to consume or view, right to copy once or seven times for home use, right to copy indefinitely but not to make a new master and sell moulds, etc. --cat)

And I'm not sure I get this-- is it stealing-- to use the molds that
one can buy in a craft store, and sell the resulting candles (not
the molds) on a small scale?

Just wondering,

Erica (Raven) Branch-Butler

(It all depends on what the rights the holder of the copyright wishes to retain and what rights the he or she wishes to assign to the buyer. If a copyright holder wishes to sell moulds, and give buyers the right to make candles (and to use, keep, or sell the candles), then that is how those rights are assigned.

(If a copyright holder wishes to make candles according to an exclusive pattern and not sell the moulds, then that is his or her right as well. People tend to forget that the actual law is about not about the choices and decisions made by any given individual designer, but about the general legal rights that are controlled by each designer / creator under protection of law until or unless they are assigned to another.

(For instance, spiritcafts sells moulds and along with those moulds they sell the right to make candles -- but they do NOT sell the right to copy their moulds and then sell more moulds.

(Meanwhile, Lucky Mojo sells candles -- and does not sell either moulds or the rights to sell copies of those candles in the form of moulds or in the form of candles made from copied moulds.

(Let me give you a couple of other examples, outside the candle business, to help you understand.

(When you buy a piece of software, you sign a license agreement. Depending on the software company's terms, you may be licensed to use only one copy of the software, or you may be licensed to place the software on a network with a ten dollar fee for each additional terminal in which it is installed, but forbidden to place it on another network. The software company is the copyright holder and the law supports their right to place any -- or some, or no -- limits on how much you copy their software.

(Here's another example: Warner Brothers controls the rights to the character Daffy Duck. They license a company to make, say, Daffy Duck t-shirts.

* The license will have a time-limit (let's say, five years).

* It will have a venue-limit (say, t-shirts are only to be sold in the USA).

* It may have a performance limit (say, a minimum quantity of t-shirts that must be produced or the contract will be considered void).

* It might have a quality limit (only 100% cotton may be used for the t-shits).

* It may have an artistic limit (perhaps only 16 images of Daffy Duck may be used and they must be provided by the Warner's Art Department and they cannot be drawn by the t-shirt company's artists or any other artists).

* The license may also have transfer or "heirs and assigns" limitations (say if the t-shirt company goes bankrupt, it may (or may not) be able to sell the unexpired portion of its license as part of asset divestment, and/or, for example, if Warner Brothers goes bankrupt, whatever company buys its assets may (or may not) need to honour the t-shirt company's unexpired license term).

* There may be anti-competition restrictions (for example, the right to make Daffy Duck t-shirts will not be given to a company that makes any other duck-motif t-shirts, and the making of such non Daffy Duck duck-motif t-shirts by the t-shirt company will void the license agreement).

* There will certainly be limitations against ancillary rights on the license (the right to make Daffy Duck t-shirts does not convey the right to make Daffy Duck cartoons, books, or plush toys, for example, or the right to make Porky Pig t-shirts).

* There may be portions of the license that protect the t-shirt licensee (for instance, Warner Brothers might have to agree to license t-shirt making rights to only one company in each nation or continent at a time).

(A good copyright agreement can run to 20 pages! Basically, the law encodes both the rights of the copyright holder and the rights of the licensee.

(Ultimately, under the protection of copyright law, each designer can assign, sell, or give away rights as he or she sees fit, in whole or in part, in time-delimited chunks or in perpetuity, because what the law ensures is that the designer, not the buyer, controls the right to set limits on how copies can (or cannot) be made -- and even when the right to copy is given, the law ensures that the rights holder may place limits upon the manner of copying, the quantity of copying, the sales of copies, the venues into which copies may be sold or other such conditions.

(Oooops. I know most folks want a simple yes or no answer -- but my grandfather was a copyright and trademark lawyer and this subject fascinates me and i have this habit of getting a bit long-winded about it. Sorry. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by tokharian » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:42 pm

I know people wish it were otherwise sometimes: I remember a figure
candle that was sold locally around here [Denver] in the 90s. It was
red, and from the front looked like some Mesopotamian pretty goddess
with hair that fanned out around her shoulders. From the back it
looked like - pardon my expliciteness here - an erect penis. We can't
seem to get it any more, and if I had one I'd sure be tempted to
copy. The seller joked that the candle represented the Goddess from
the front, and the God from the back.

Barb Griffith

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by melchizedeky1 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:36 pm

Greetings to all:
First of all I want to say thanks to Mike to his response as well
as his participation as an active group member, and secondly I would
like to thank Cat for her gentle words of wisdom in reference to my
interest in wanting to obtain " Male and Female" figure molds.Well,
Cat I know that am going to be imposing this on you, but as a crybaby
I will. I am still interested in obtaining on. Please, am willing to
buy these. I understand that you said they are expensive, so would
you be kind enough to research this for me. Yes, I understand that
you are very busy, but am sure you will agree with me that as a new
student of this Great Work, it's important to keep up with my
readings..as prescribed by the course. I rather pay for these molds
than making one due to time and possible liability of violation of
copy right. I am just too busy to be making molds at the moment, but
am in need of this pair, so buying them ready for usage it's
prefered. Ive got to keep up with my studies of HRCC.

B. A # 883 ( LLL )

(Already answered! --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by melchizedeky1 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:40 pm

Thanks Maryam,

I understand e-bay, but time is crucial for me. Sometimes this is
more important than money .I will negotiate and solicit the
assistance of Cat.The nature of my work is very important and
critical daily...aviation Industry takes a lot out of us. Usually I
don't get to sleep till at least about 05:30 daily. Just like I told
many people that I know when I have to be at work but am not sure
when I would return home or where I would end up any where around the
Globe!!! Maintenance safety and responsibilities rest on my diligence
and authorization back to service. We want to get those Airplanes in
the air safely and get them back on the ground safely too. what ever
I spend for the Great Work, is being done for G-d and the
Masters.They will always provide ways and means!!!!

Bankole Banjo

(Name added by cat. Please remember to sign your names, folks. And, as before, a source for the candle moulds was previously posted. --cat)

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by melchizedeky1 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:41 pm

Greetings Everybody!!!
Oh!Rebecca Bordes,thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help and
taking the time out to research this for me. You don't know how much
I appreaciate your effort. I will visit this site. By the way, those
vulva image candle might come handy also one day.

B.A. # 883 ( LLL ).

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by melchizedeky1 » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:45 pm

Oh cat,

It's O.K, we can use a little enlightenment of Copy right Laws. use
see one day I wanted to recollect one of the beautiful coffee cups I
had purchased from the Order and mistakenly broken but still have the
logo that can be transferred to another new Cup, but many people will
not do it due to what they considered as a copyright protected cup.In
either case, these are not for resale,I only want two pairs for
private usage only.

B.A # 883 ( LLL )

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by Rebecca » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:56 pm

You are very welcome. It wasn't difficult, just popped it into the search engine and there it was.

Rebecca Bordes
Student #512

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by ravenbasslady » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:02 pm

Cat, your answer explains a lot. I've worked on and off as a
freelance illustrator for years and still the subject is freakin'
arcane to me! :-)I've had work stolen before, so I tend to be a bit
prickly about theft--it's good to know what's legal and what's not.

Regards,

Erica(Raven)Branch-Butler

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Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by myk5_2 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:49 am

When I post information about Hoodoo on my own website, I always use your writing as my primary source of information. I always give you credit and link back to this site or to my yahoo store where I can get affiliate credit if they buy your Hoodoo book there.

But I'm left feeling if you don't accuse me of plagiarism, you'll accuse me of wasting your time with self promotion.

Here's a link to my most recent appropriation of information about Hoodoo wherein I used your writing as source material: [link deleted]

And yes, Chaos magic is not Hoodoo, but Chaos Magic is a meta-paradigm and so can co-exist with Hoodoo in a personal practice that makes no claim to being strictly traditional.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:20 pm

myk5, you give a blanket, "this was written by cat" header, and then you just copy at will.

Your comments are in between, which is great.

Now you need to learn about quote marks. When you quote my words, put my words in quote marks. This is the decent, sane, proper way to quote someone.

---------------

Example 1 -- WRONG:

myk5 is where i got the idea that there is some debate whether the plant carries its own power or the power unlocked is your own and based in belief. Certainly if you want to go the belief route, sigil magic may suit you better. But there is also more than one way to imagine the herb or root being powerful as well, and the history of its magical use is in the collective unconscious, so in my work i use plants according to my own ecelectic intuitions

----------

Did you notice how much of that was your writing and how much was mine?

How would you feel if i took ALL of your pages and posted them at my site like that, and then compiled them into a book and put my name on the title page?

----------

Example #2 -- RIGHT:

To the chaos magician myk5, "the history of [a plant's] magical use is in the collective unconscious," which means that for him or her the oral and written traditions of a culture's inherited folklore might not be as important a source of learning as the practitioner's own self-perceived ability to tap into the collective wisdom of the culture through spiritual means such as meditation, introspection, or intuition.

----------

Do you see how i quoted you -- WITH QUOTATION MARKS -- and used your text as a building block to express my own ideas?

There is a difference. You have a long way to go before you become a writer rather than an assembler of scraps.

Start with quotation marks. Seriously. The use of quotation marks will satisfy legal requirements and mollify the authors from whom you borrow -- but more importantly, for your own growth, the use of quotation marks will force you to find your own voice, to develop as an adept and a mage, and to take wing as an individual rather than crawl in the mud as a mere copyist.
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by myk5_2 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:17 pm

Thank you for your indulgence and your tolerance, I'll edit the post soon. It's perhaps a more sophisticated edit than correctly using punctuation, you have the right to expect the words i attribute to you in quotes to be exactly and completely your own.

Thank you for the editing tips. I'll do better from now on.

The example you use leads me to infer that you're very offended, and for that I apologize.

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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:10 pm

myk5, no, i am not offended. I am blunt, probably too blunt for many people.

I am a 63 year old writer and editor with 43 years professional experience in the publishing field, so i was speaking directly and with conviction about the craft i have worked at daily to earn my living since 1967, telling what i know to one who may profit by my words.

You actually are a good writer, and if i didn't think so, i wouldn't have wasted my time telling you that stuff.
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Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by autumnmist » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:45 pm

Hello everyone,

I was recently at a "friends" house and she was showing me some of her work. She happened to show me some mojo bags that she "created" but one was named "Come To Me". I asked her if she ever learned hoodoo. She said she had not.
When I left I was thinking...
Once we are ready to start working as root doctors, wouldn't we create and come up with our own names and logo's for our products?

My question would be, once we are ready, we would not use Lucky Mojo's logos or names, correct?

Thank you for your time
Autumn aka MistyCrow
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:15 am

The names of products are aften culturally shared. If you make chocolate chip cookies, you can call them that -- but you can not call them Nabisco Chocolate Chip Cookies. No one has ever successfully defended a generic name like "Come To Me," to my knowledge -- but logo design, visual graphics, and accompanying text materials are protected by trademark and copyright law.
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by autumnmist » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:35 am

That makes perfect sense. I thank you for your time and your clarification.
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by JayDee » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:36 am

Here is a web link sellinga devil shoe string oil and describes the oil, its use and how to prepare it to gamble virtually word for word by Miss Cat in hoodoo in theory and practice. No citation exist giving Miss Cat or Lucky Mojo proper credit for the work.

Website link: https://conjuredcardea.indiemade.com/pr ... clear-evil

Lucky Mojos link: http://www.luckymojo.com/devilsshoestring.html

Looked through a few other similar products I could find that Lucky Mojo sells I found St Expedite which is the same a copy of Lucky mojo

Website link: https://conjuredcardea.indiemade.com/pr ... craft-sant

Lucky Mojo link: http://www.luckymojo.com/saintexpedite.html
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:24 pm

OH SHIT -- it is Conjured Cardea again! That fucking BITCH!

Her name is Sarah Best. She is a former customer of my shop!

Sarah Best
1467 Prospect Place
Kalamazoo, MI 49006 USA
269-599-9281
ladysayje@yahoo.com

She has done this MULTIPLE times to MULTIPLE people.

Thank you so much for alerting me.

I will ask siva to go after her like a raving Pit Bull later tonight. She is a fucking ASSHOLE and deserves HARD JAIL TIME!
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by cognitivedissonance » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:21 pm

https://mcphee.com/collections/sale/pro ... uggage-tag

I don’t think it’s your art, but considering they’re selling the Dr. Hernandez glow statue again, they’re edging really close.
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Re: Plagiarism Copyright Trademark Understanding the Law

Post by catherineyronwode » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm

Our companies have had correspondance on the subject. They have said they will sell out that product and then not remake it. They order big lots made in China, so it takes a while to move it all. We shall see.
catherine yronwode
teacher - author - LMCCo owner - HP and AIRR member - MISC pastor - forum admin

Herb-Magic.com
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