(Non-Hoodoo) News Stories on African and African Diasporic Folk Lore Religion and Magic

[SequoiaHerbs]

A lot of people seem to be interested in the REAL Africa. There is a
Yoruba tribe in SC. It's well worth a visit, they have many, many
ceremonies open to the public so you can see the real thing in
action. They are very warm wonderful people. You can get info at
www.oyotunji.net That is the villages website, no passport, no
expensive plane ticket, and the best part no shots.
Adele

[Monique Jones]

www.mamiwata.com/hoodoo.html

[Chela23]

In the collection "Drums and Shadows", at Sacred Texts Online ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm), there is much reference to "flying back to Africa", does anyone have more information on this practice?

[mpambunzila]

In the collection "Drums and Shadows", there is much reference to "flying back to Africa", does anyone have more information on this practice?

Flying Back To Africa refers to an actual historical event that has evolved into a kind of larger-than-life, legendary tale told among African Americans. The story sometimes goes by the name of The People Could Fly. There is a nice collection of folktales that has that as its title (and of course includes that tale, too.)

There is a place known as Igbo Landing (pronounced eebo) on the Sea Coast Islands where kidnapped Africans committed a mass suicidal drowning while their slave-ship was anchored just offshore. The slavers had just brought their human cargo above deck in preparation for loading them onto smaller boats, but the Igbos abruptly leapt overboard before the crew could stop them.

This was actually not uncommon. In the first moments when kidnapped Africans were taken aboard slave-ships, slavers had to take special precautions to prevent their victims from immediately leaping overboard - chains & all - to their deaths. The occurrence at Igbo Landing involved Igbos from West Africa. Word spread of their mass drowning, and Whites in the Sea Coast region refused to purchase Igbos after that.

Word spread among African-Americans as well, but this tragedy had a completely different meaning for them. For the African-Americans, the Igbos had re-joined the Ancestors, something that was made difficult (if not impossible) by the fact that slaves had been taken away from their indigenous Land. The crisis of physical separation from the land had a direct impact on connection with the Ancestors. Connection with the African Homeland meant physical connection with the Ancestors. This is very important to understand. That is why stories grew up of Flying Back Home. Those Igbos did not "kill" themselves in the Western sense of "Death." For them, they were rejoining their beloved families & friends in the Ancestral realm. They had Flown Home.

At the risk of mixing apples & oranges, I can explain this stuff a little better by drawing on Kongo cosmology, which I understand far better than Igbo culture. (Obviously, Kongo culture is not identical to Igbo culture, but they both share an Afrocentric perspective.) Anyway, in the belief of the Bakongo peoples, the Ancestors live underwater, in a land that is essentially a mirror-image of our world - it's just on the other side (where the sun goes at night, etc.) They're not Dead - they're simply living in another state of reality.

I cannot say whether the Igbos' belief system is exactly the same as this, but these sort of ideas are certainly not exclusive to the Bakongo; Dahomeans (from where we get Voodoo) had a nearly identical belief.

And what is particularly relevant to Hoodoo is the connection between the Land and the Ancestors themselves. This is an idea common to many cultures of West and Central African. And that is why graveyard dirt is so important in Hoodoo. It forms a physical link to the wisdom, power, and community of the Ancestors, known as the Bafwa or the Mpemba in the kikongo language.

Taylor






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[Quimbisero]

Taylor, in bringing up the issue of Kongo cosmology you have offered
me an opportunity to bring up a very interesting, if painful subject.
Thank you.

There are some very important things to understand about why and in
what manner, the Kongo adopted Christianity in Africa. That they did,
and fairly extensively is well documented. WHat their understanding
about what Christianity meant was different from what the Europeans
thought, but that's another story.

What is especially powerful for me in relation to this whole subject
is the Kongo's view of life, death, and the otherworld. Specifically
their very concrete and immediate ideas, because they didn't view
these things as being immaterial. They were real and physical
realities as palpable as the living and breathing world.

For the Kongo, the world of the dead was, among other places, beyond
the ocean or under it. There is much vagueness in such details and
multiple locations are not especially troubling in this system. The
spiritual beings, the Basimbi and the Bankuyu, who inhabit the
otherworld are white in color, as white is the color of the dead. So,
when the Europeans show up with seemingly miraculous powers (giant
ships, gunpowder, writing) from across the sea and they are white, the
Kongo viewed them quite literally as being from the world of the dead
and as being spirits of the otherworld. It was documented even into
the 19th century, that Kongolese who saw white people for the first
time would call them nkita (another name for spirits).

Now, it does not take much imagination to realize that if you, a
Bakongo at this time were chained and taken abourd a ship to cross the
ocean at the hands of white people, you did not view yourself for the
most part as going into slavery, you viewed yourself as dying. That is
a powerful and frightening image and one which needs to be explored.


Eoghan

[ocsana13]

I'm glad you brought this subject up. I was telling Siva the other day that I've found myself giving more involve in the aspect of Vodou and the Yorubans religion to better understand why we (hoodoo) do what we do. Which I find has also enlighted me personally, I mean I'm trying to make contact with my deceased anstectors (something I was always taught never to do is "missed with the dead") I also find myself not being so afraid to die. i was always afraid of an unknown mysteries of the beyond, but not anymore. I'm into the many great Orishas now and Oh what fun I'm having. Ashe
Sherel

[Quimbisero]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, sherel16@a... wrote:
> > I'm glad you brought this subject up. I was telling Siva the other
day that I've found myself giving more involve in the aspect of Vodou
and the Yorubans religion to better understand why we (hoodoo) do what
we do. \

Sherel,

You will come to much greater understandings about Hoodoo if you look
south to the Congo. This, rather than West Africa is the home for much
of what you find in Hoodoo.

Eoghan

[cmazz1]

Cat,

I remember the incident well re the killing of the Texas college student.
He was a student at Uni. of Texas at Austin and was on Spring Break.
Border towns are fave spots for Texas Spring Breakers.
Something that you did not mention, but was repeated many times on the
newscasts, was that the leader told the members of the cult that in killing humans
and offering them to the gods/saints they, the drug dealers, would have
protection from the law. The burial ground used was excavated and many bodies were
found. It was not until the Texas student disappeared that the Mexican
government looked into the disappearance of the Mexicans. It seemed to be random
killings.

The local Roman Catholic Assistant Bishop was Mexican/American. He was
interviewed at the time and seemed very reluctant to discuss Santeria. (That was
the first I had heard of it.) Mainly he explained about the use of the Catholic
saints. Statues were found at the cult's "hideout." He wanted to make it
clear that it was not sanctioned by the Church.

To this day Texas Spring Breakers are warned to be very careful if they go to
Mexico.

Cec


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[Quimbisero]

Just to reiterate, neither the so-called "santeria" (actually correctly called La Regla de Ocha
or Ocha for short) nor Palo (actually called Las Reglas de Congo) are in anyway native to
the South West or Mexico. They are both Cuban and exist outside of Cuba only through
their export by Cubans mostly since the 59 revolution. Some loosely call Mexican folk
religion and magic "Santeria" but this is a misnomer. Santeria in Puerto Rico is actually a
term for those who are involved in the making of handcarved statues of the saints.

Eoghan

[Laura Gail]

I just heard a tape version (books on tape) of Ruby Dee reading Mules
and Men by Zora Neale Hurston. I listened to most of it last night, and
it was FABULOUS! So much of it that was great on the page just bloomed
into something unspeakably magic.

I got it from the library, and it's available either alone or with Ruby
Dee also reading the unabridged version of Their Eyes Were Watching
God. My stepdaughter and I will be starting to listen to Their Eyes
Were Watching God tomorow, in the yard, lying in the hammock under the
trees in hot muggy New England Weather. Perfect. We will even have ice
cold lemonade!

I've also got Mamma Day on tape, which is also great.

laura gail

ps- my stepdaughter is settling in surprisingly well here. She has
always wanted to be an herbalist, and is now studying my books on
herbs. She claims that she wants to start with the medicinal properties
and work up to the magical ones.....but when I went away for a couple of
days she took white egg shells, ground them up for a powder base, mixed
in lavendar and chamomile to make a sleeping sprinkle. Very
interesting. And it seemed to work!

[mpambunzila]

Taylor,

If you have any further material you think of interest and which can fit the topic, I for one would be grateful.

Eoghan


Eoghan,

I have not seen anything in print more current than about a year old. It kind of gives me the impression that things have gotten stalled regarding DNA research. I've read that Michael L. Blakey, the anthropologist who headed up the research, has moved on to William & Mary College. He faced criticism from two different fronts: those in favor of immediate reburial (who considered holding onto the skeletons for scientific research as another round of slavery, and those opposed to funding DNA research because it would be so expensive.) A decade of this sort of controversy & criticism is a lot to handle - not to mention what appears to be a widespread preference among folks of my skin-tone for just forgetting about the whole thing.

So I don't know anything further.

Taylor









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[Doc Scarabus]

Here's a link to the story about Kerry's good luck charms that I
mentioned on the chat.

It doesn't mention the aligator tooth for Florida, which I was sure I
heard on the TV. The third item is Bruce Springsteen's guitar pick.
He's also got a charm from a Native American medicine man.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1266712/posts

[Jon Hughett]

Hello Eoghan,
I listened with great interest to you talk on the Hoodoo Rootwork
Hour last night and I have one question for you. You mentioned a
Congo equivalent to the mojo bag which I believed you called
an 'encasa'(sorry, I probably butchered the spelling on that). I was
wondering what the literal translation of this word is? Thanks for
your time and for the great talk last night,

Jon

(I'm not Eoghan, but the word is nkisi, also spelled inquice. I believe Eoghan translated this as fetish (also spelled fetich in some older texts), which is a word borrowed into English from the Portuguese, and means "a man-made amulet, charm, or other object embodying supernatural power" -- in contradistinction to a naturally occuring botanical, zoological, or mineral curio. For those interested in language, the Portuguese word fetish derives from the Latin word facere, "to make" and is related to the English word "factitious" [Latin factitius] meaning that which is made or devised, in distinction to what is produced by nature. A related word if artificial or "made by art." --cat)

[Quimbisero]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Hughett" <jhughett@m...> wrote:
> >
> Hello Eoghan,
> I listened with great interest to you talk on the Hoodoo Rootwork
> Hour last night and I have one question for you. You mentioned a
> Congo equivalent to the mojo bag which I believed you called
> an 'encasa'(sorry, I probably butchered the spelling on that). I was
> wondering what the literal translation of this word is? Thanks for
> your time and for the great talk last night,
>
> Jon
>
> (I'm not Eoghan, but the word is nkisi, also spelled inquice. I
> believe Eoghan translated this as fetish (also spelled fetich in some
> older texts), which is a word borrowed into English from the
> Portuguese, and means "a man-made amulet, charm, or other object
> embodying supernatural power" -- in contradistinction to a naturally
> occuring botanical, zoological, or mineral curio. For those interested
> in language, the Portuguese word fetish derives from the Latin word
> facere, "to make" and is related to the English word "factitious"
> [Latin factitius] meaning that which is made or devised, in
> distinction to what is produced by nature. A related word is
> artificial or "made by art." --cat)

Thanks Cat, for explaining the main points. The literal translation
for nkisi is "medicine". That being said, Cat explained the rest
perfectly.

Eoghan

(Thanks, Eoghan. Sorry for my mistake -- you *described* the nkisi as a festish, but translated the Congo word itself as "medicine. --cat)

[Quimbisero]

Cat Said:

> > (Thanks, Eoghan. Sorry for my mistake -- you *described* the nkisi
> as a fetish, but translated the Congo word itself as "medicine. --cat)

Yes, and the distinction is important. Fetish is a description which
represents a non-Kongo understanding of the phenomenon, while nkisi
(medicine) represents an indigenous conception.

Eoghan

[mosetsana2003]

Hi

student #404

i have a couple of questions here. my greatgranddad was a traditional
doctor in Africa and my grandfather. i was always in the room with them
when they were throwing bone and consulting clients, so are some
questions,

(Wait, my questions first! What part of Africa was this, how long ago? You don't need to tell your age, but please do tell us the decade and the nation, the language that you spoke or tribe your people are from, okay? I am sure than many of us here would like to know more about your family. --cat)

do people here use eagle claws/or big bird to dominate a person, was
told when i was young that a person will never raise their voice to
you when you have that in you domination mojo bag,

(Well, in the USA it is illegal to hunt, kill, harm, or even possess the body parts of an eagle. They are fairly rare birds, you see. So i was never told that, because by the time i was a young woman, eagles were almost extinct here and were protected. But many birds have roles in hoodoo. For instance, people in the old days used buzzard (vulture) feathers and had the buzzard as an ally. There were several famous root doctors who went by the name "Doctor Buzzard" and they specialized in court case work, getting people out of jail. Also people who wanted to talk well, to spoeak well and convincingly in public -- like a preacher, for instance -- would carry a bird tongue, usually from a magpie or mockingbird -- very talkative and intelligent birds that can mimic the sounds of other birds. --cat)

also as we know its common practise to get someone's foot track,
but its a common practise to take someone's car track, of course to
harm them. is that practised here too car track conjure!

(Yes, i know people to have worked on each others' car tracks and also directly on the car tires (sprinkling powders on the tires up under the fender where they will not be seen) -- to cause a wreck or break-down, for instance. --cat)

it is possible to kill someone using their feces my cousin said long
time ago she got mad at someone, she took her feces put in in a sealed
bottle and burned that until the bottle exploded the poor girl died
within a week so my cousin now is worried sick because she was about 8
when she did that, she thinks maybe its was a concidence that she died
what do you think!

(This old African trick is still practiced in the USA in hoodoo -- it is one of the oldest and deadliest tricks. You can stop up someone's bowels with feces in a bottle, stop up someone's bladder with their urine in a bottle, or stop up a woman's uterus with her menstrual blood in a bottle. These are wicked tricks that are still practiced. --cat)

both my grandparents were interviewd by an american, i don't know who, in
the 50's. that person died in safari so the book was never published.
they are sending me the papers, bones bags, 7 mojo bags -- so will you be
willing to help indentify some of the stuff? i have almost forgotten
anything to do with traditional medition because my mother was agains it.

(I would be very glad to help identify whatever i can. I think Eoghan Ballard will also be able to help, as he has studied African magic deeply. You might also want to contact a botanist familiar with African plants because some of these plants will be completely different than what we have in North America and will be difficult for me to identify on sight. Good scans will help -- and any papers attached would be of great help as well. This sounds like a wonderful project. You will be doing all of us a great service by letting us know what was in these bags, what their intentions or purposes were, and how they were made. Thank you so much for sharing with us. --cat)

excuse my english, there is so much i want to write but my english is
limited

(Your English is better than my African! You're doing fine. I have corrected a few misseplled words for you, but everything is perfectly readable, no problem. -cat)

thanks

[mosetsana2003]

hi Cat


(Wait, my questions first! What part of Africa was this, how long
ago? You don't need to tell your age, but please do tell us the decade
and the nation, the language that you spoke or tribe your people are
from, okay? I am sure than many of us here would like to know more
about your family. --cat)

I'm form south Africa, my parents are from venda and kwa-zulu natal,
we later moved to Botswana. because my parents moved to Botswana in
the 50's am blessed to speak about 5 Africa languages. my
great-grandfather was born in 1912 and my grandfather was born in 1938,
i tribe I grew up in Botswana is balete and the language is
setswana/selete.

I had an interesting childhood, because I was treated differently from
other children because my grandparents said I was "gifted" I was
always with my grand parents consulting we would go to the cave/hill,
where my grandparents always took people for cleansing and smoking.
from fathers side of family too we had three traditional doctors

I was always torn between the two families not to mention my mother
who was a Christian and didn't want her daughter to be involved in
"witchcraft" let me tell you an interesting story that did it for my
mother, I was around 8 years old there was this German lady that came
for consultation with my grandpa so while she was waiting outside I
went to her and we started chatting, she told me she was going to buy
a BMW the next day and she will pick me up for a joyride all of a
sudden I black out,and I had this vision this woman was going to die
within 3 days, whene I woke up everyone was around me they we worried
because no one knew what was going on, I said to this woman, don't buy
I car you are going to die within 3 days (I put it exactly like a 8
would, didn't know better!) you can imagine the looks I got, in 2 days
the lady did have a car accident and sadly died. That was it for my
mother. I was moved away from my grandparents and only visited once in a
while, up to now. I still have really precise dreams so most of the
time I don't tell anyone my dreams.

even though I know how to throw bones and read them I do that only to
friends, and the word is out now, people bring their photos, I sleep over
that, and the next day I tell them, some of the dream! Both my grand
parents always come thru my dreams to tell all I need to know, my
husband is awed by all that

Am happy to have joined this course and Cat you stuff is the best!, I
have Decided to bring one of my grandparents, the remaining doc in my family,
he is 82, to refresh my memory. we can come that side cat if you want
to know more about bone throwing African way. am in Sacramento. I am in
my late 20's.

Lots of love to everyone.

(Thank you for the explanatuion of your family's history and ways of working. I hope you will tell us lots more, as this is precious knowledge to many here. I know of at least one other student in this group who has connections to South Africa -- Marc from Beaumont. He was born in the USA but his aunt has taught him a lot about the South African methods, which are very similar to American hoodoo, and he has shared some of this with us. Also, our radio show host, Dr. Kioni, has been spirit-led toward learning more about the Zulu form of working, due to a vision he had. As for me, i would be very interested to learn your family's method of bone divination. As i have mentioned in the course, several years ago i met a woman through my church whose grandfather used to throw the bones -- in Tennesee -- and she told me how when he had died, the knowledge was lost in the family, which she deeply regretted. It was not because of being Christian or anything that they lost the knowledge -- it was just that no one thought to ask him how it was done or to study with him before he passed. She was sad that something so spiritually powerful that had been preserved in her family for many generations during slavery and after was thus lost, and she told me to always, always ask people i met if anyone in their family could read the bones. I took her story seriously, and i have since learned a bit about African methods fo throwing the bones -- there are several different methods, depending on the region of Africa, which is a vast continent, of course -- but most important to me, this question she told me to ask others has turned out to be a particularly deep one in other people as well, for the loss of knowledge of how to read the bones, due to not studying with an elder before he passed, has happened in many African American families, and has in a way become a perfect symbol of what those people wish to regain in the way of spiritual gifts. --cat)

[natstein]

"mosetsana2003" <mosetsana2003@y...> wrote:

> >[...]
> even though I know how to throw bones and read them I do that
> only to friends, and the word is out now, people bring their
> photos, I sleep over that, and the next day I tell them, some
> of the dream! Both my grand parents always come thru my dreams
> to tell all I need to know, my

Hello .. and welcome to the group!!

I am really glad you found your way here ! sounds like you have
lots to share with us ! I have always been interested in throwing
the bones for divination as well ... would you be willing to share
that with us ?? I think it is fascinating that you were abel to
share so much with your grandparents and there way of working !!

again welcome to the group and I lok forward to reading your posts
and learnign what you have to share !

Nathen

[Quimbisero]

I won't presume to speak for mosetsana2003 aka student 404 (can we
have at least a nickname, please?) because it's her family tradition,
but from what I know of Venda and related traditions, there are
several forms of "bones" throwing, all of which may (or may not) be
called the same thing depending on where you are. These things have a
lot of local variation.

Pengula is one name for the use of various kinds of animal knuckles
and there are complex methods of collecting and preparing the bones to
be used and a period of initiation which may vary in form and length.

Then there are the four tablets which may be of bone, wood or Mongongo
seeds. These may have patterns on them or not (in the case of the
seeds) and also have a number of names, usually also called by the
local word for bones or hakata or makakata. This latter form is
usually not accompanied by initiations (at least not in the area of
Botswana and South Africa) but similar systems among theShona in
Zimbabwe may be.

There are a lot of variations and "mosetsana" will tell us what she
wishes of her traditions. I am very pleased to be able to hear what
she honors us with by sharing.

malembe,

Eoghan

[Etudiant Ancetres]

Eughan wrtote:

> > from what I know of Venda and related traditions, there are
> several forms of "bones" throwing, all of which may (or may not) be
> called the same thing depending on where you are. These things have a
> lot of local variation.

In South Africa, the Zulus call the throwing bones amathambo. We call it "dolas". It's pronounced like Spanish.

Marc

[mosetsana2003]

Hi everyone

hi Eoghan, yes there are diffrent ways of throwing bone, in setswana
maybe you will know is "ditaola" and in botswana too depending if you
are a traditional doctor (ngaka ya setso) or a sangoma, i dont know if
my grandparents sticked to venda or zulu way of throwing bones because
they moved to botswana, like 1 said in ealier post, i moved away from them.

i am hoping by june my grand parent (traditional doc) will be here and
any one who will like to post and ask him questin can, if Cat doesn't
mind. my knowlegde is limited, that is why i want to bring him here
before it's late. he is 87, he does not speak any english, a pity!

but i will sure like to share what i know and heard!

Mosetsana

(I would be very glad to use this list as a way for students to ask your grand father questions, with you translating -- not only about throwing bones for divination, but also about other forms of spiritual work, such as bringing good luck, providing protection, and so forth. It will be interesting to all of us, of course. --cat)

[Etudiant Ancetres]

"mosetsana2003" <mosetsana2003@y...> wrote:

> >[...]
> even though I know how to throw bones and read them I do that
> only to friends, and the word is out now, people bring their
> photos, I sleep over that, and the next day I tell them, some
> of the dream! Both my grand parents always come thru my dreams
> to tell all I need to know...

GIRL YOU ARE SO LUCKY!!! I didn't learn the old African ways because my grandparents died before my birth, plus the offspring don't really believe in that stuff. The next time I return to South Africa, I will search for a iSangoma [witchdoctor] to learn how to throw the bones. I know a few African tricks [luckily from my aunt], but I want to learn more. In fact, I want to be a iSangoma. I'm all about going straight back to the source to "juice up" the hoodoo even though that isn't necessary for everyone [except me]. I personally feel that going back to my African roots is so important to me. I'm tired of waiting. I'm ready to approach the African Spirit!!! This is part of who I am and what I am.

--Marc

[Etudiant Ancetres]

mosetsana2003 <mosetsana2003@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > hi Eoghan, yes there are diffrent ways of throwing bone, in setswana
> maybe you will know is "ditaola" and in botswana too depending if you
> are a traditional doctor (ngaka ya setso) or a sangoma, i dont know if
> my grandparents sticked to venda or zulu way of throwing bones because
> they moved to botswana, like 1 said in ealier post, i moved away from them.

Oh my gosh! I didn't know that you're also from South Africa mosetsana. My family are from the Western Cape province. My immediate family are from a small town called Worcester en die wynland (wine country). From what I know, as I mentioned in the teleconference my oupa was "fixed" by receiving scratches on his back as protection against witchcraft. By the way, he was from Kimberly (a.k.a. the City of Diamonds) and spoke Tswana besides English and Afrikaans. My grandmother was 'born' in Canarvon, BUT there's rumor that she was originally from St. Helena island and was adopted in S. Africa. She spoke English, Xhosa, & Afrikaans and was Dutch-Reformed. My grandfather was a staunch Catholic. Whoa, now I'm going into my family history. There are so many pieces in the puzzle. Despite our Christian background, my ouma was gifted because she dreamed. My mother has this gift as well except that she dreams A LOT of the dead rather than dreaming true. They always come to her and give her warnings from time to time. The gift has passed down to me except that it doesn't manifest for me in dreams, but in reading people as I mentioned before. Now, let me get back to this post. As for reading bones, I've heard of witchdoctors using casino tokens as part of their "bones". The witchdoctors use things that hold a special meaning to them--Marc

> > i am hoping by june my grand parent (traditional doc) will be here and
> any one who will like to post and ask him questin can, if Cat doesn't
> mind. my knowlegde is limited, that is why i want to bring him here
> before it's late. he is 87, he does not speak any english, a pity!
> but i will sure like to share what i know and heard!
>
> Mosetsana

Mosetsana, I would like to speak to you more about this subject [via telephone] if you don't mind. I can provide you my number in private if you like so we can share some tricks. Plus, I have some questions about herbs "by die huis" (at home) because for a few of the tricks I learned, they involved using herbs, but we don't know their English or proper names. It'd be nice if we got together on phone with Cat, Dr. Kioni, Mambo Angel, & Eoghan to discuss these things and to analyze them. This is information that I don't want to reveal to everyone not because of initiation or anything, but because it's so sacred. I kept a promise to my aunt to preserve these things with ultimate respect

--Marc

[Quimbisero]

And of course there are a lot of significant details of practice which
may form continuities across areas, cultural groups or even variations
within them. And of course, there have been changes over time as well.
Presumably what young people are doing today there, may not be exactly
what their grandparents did. We tend to fantasize that traditions,
African or otherwise have been handed down in some sort of archaic
state of purity. There are no Ur forms. If you trace something back
5,000 (almost completely impossible except for India and China among
any living cultures) then I guarantee you, if you were able to see
what that person's great grand parents were doing, it would have been
different. Maybe it would not have been so completely different as to
be unrecognizable, but it would be different.

Among the Nguni for instance, There is a tendency to avoid spirit
possession and to rely upon "wisdom" divination, ie, mechanistic
divination that depends upon the detailed interpretation of signs
based upon a memorized (albeit sometimes shifting and/or flexible) set
of interpretations. This has to do with culturally specific ideas of
purity and the dead. Among the Xhosa however, divination almost always
occurs within a context of spirit possession even when using similar
mechanistic systems such as a variety of "bones" throwing. In the last
20 years however, spirit possession has begun to appear among the
Nguni as a result of urban exposure to Xhosa practice and other
pressures upon traditional worldviews.

So, as you can see, it becomes extremely problematic to deduce sources
of various American practices without fairly extensive familiarity
with historical trends, linguistics and documentation from times past.
However, in a tradition like Hoodoo, while I think it necessary to
distinguish between what we know empirically from what we do not,
reconnecting the dots, so long as we don't make claims of authenticity
in the American context, can make for some exciting personal growth
and practice. For people who straddle the Atlantic so to speak, as do
Mosetsana and Marc to varying degrees, then they (or perhaps it's
their spirits) get to choose what they will use and from where. This
is all really interesting. We have a fascinating community here.

Malembe,

Eoghan

[Doc Scarabus]

A guy ws arrested for stealing locks of hair
and putting his semen in women's drinks.

http://www.modelminority.com/printout1008.html

(Wow. This is a fascating article. There is one oddity that points to hoodoo (he is a white guy but he studied at Louisiana State University) and several oddities that indicate that this was not hoodoo but rather a sexual fetish that loosely resembles some hoodoo practices (he did the trick often and to many women who were strangers, he was married at the time, and also, way down at the bottom of the artile, under evidence, we find "gloves used for sexual self-gratification.") It's bizarre as they get, thugh, of that we can be sure. Thanks for pointing it out. --cat)

[Bro-Jay]

I was doing a web search on Hooddoo and this article came up. It looks
like a transcrption of an introductory lecture given in England. It is
an introduction to hoodoo, but I thought the list might find it
interesting. The author cites Cat at the very bottom of the article,
so if she hasn't heard of it, I thought she'd be interested.

http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/ess_hoodoo.html

Jay

(Yes, this article is at the site owned by Phil Hine, a well-known Chaos magician. The essayist, Stephen Grasso, largely drew the first half of the piece from my web pages, as a paragraph-by-paragraph comparison will show, hence the citation to my site. --cat)

[Etudiant Ancetres]

Eoghan,

I have a question for you and anyone else familiar with this topic. I've noticed the emphasis on using room corners in some hoodoo spells. For example, in "Mules & Men", Zora Neale Hurston describes a poppet spell where the poppet is bound by rope and placed in a corner. I've seen some Santeria ebos that involve placing eggun altars at the corner of a room. My aunt just gave me a job of presenting offerings to the ancestors, but at my room corner. What is the significance of room corners in Hoodoo & Congo traditions? I look forward to your reply.

Marc

(Marc, i know this query is for Eoghan, our resident expert on African customs, but i do want to note that the corner is a portion of the five-spot pattern or quincunx and thus marks an intersection with the other world. --cat)

[Quimbisero]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, Etudiant Ancetres
<enfantdesancetres@y...> wrote:
> > Eoghan,
>
> I have a question for you and anyone else familiar with this topic.
I've noticed the emphasis on using room corners in some hoodoo
spells. For example, in "Mules & Men", Zora Neale Hurston describes a
poppet spell where the poppet is bound by rope and placed in a corner.
I've seen some Santeria ebos that involve placing eggun altars at
the corner of a room. My aunt just gave me a job of presenting
offerings to the ancestors, but at my room corner. What is the
significance of room corners in Hoodoo & Congo traditions? I look
forward to your reply.
> >
> Marc
>
> (Marc, i know this query is for Eoghan, our resident expert on
African customs, but i do want to note that the corner is a portion of
the five-spot pattern or quincunx and thus marks an intersection with
the other world. --cat)

Cat's right. THe corners mark the intersection of worlds or planes of
activity. As such it is natural that they receive special attention
and require special measures to protect the individual, a place and
any specific workings.

Eoghan

[RedWill0w]

Thanks, Dara -- SanaCrow already sent it through, so no nned for a second copy.

Grateful cat

[Quimbisero]

It's a nice article. You know, i used to get upset when articles
referred to the Congo as "West African", and then I remembered that
many Americans think that New Mexico is a foreign country. So, I guess
I AM holding the bar just a little too high.

Eoghan

[Cidali]

Quimbisero <eballard@sas.upenn.edu> wrote:

> > I remembered that many Americans think
> that New Mexico is a foreign country.
> So, I guess I AM holding the bar just
> a little too high.

sadly, there are many Americans who, due to the current state of our schools, can't even locate the US on a world map. -:(

[Quimbisero]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, Paula Jordan <paula_jordan999@y...>
wrote:
> >
> Quimbisero <eballard@s...> wrote:
>
> > I remembered that many Americans think
> > that New Mexico is a foreign country.
> > So, I guess I AM holding the bar just
> > a little too high.
>
> sadly, there are many Americans who, due to the current state of our
schools, can't even locate the US on a world map. -:(

I can think of a few whom I'd like to give a bus ticket to
Saskatchewan and a map.

Eoghan

[Quimbisero]

Mãe Olga de Alaketu has died. An Ialorixá, the highest position in the
hierarchy of Bahian Candomblé of Keto and Nago origins, Mãe Olga was
known for preserving the dignity of the religion.

"An important chapter of the history of the Bahia has ended" remarked
etnolinguist Yeda Pesoa de Castro, author of the book "African
Language in Bahia",encapsilating the feelings of all over the death of
ialorixá Olga Francisca Régis, Mãe Olga de Alaketu, 80 years of age.
Her burial occured yesterday in the Cemitério Bosque da Paz, in Salvador.

The public Funeral ceremony followed after the rites of candomblé, but
also made room for a small catholic celebration performed by Father
Alfredo Souza. Also participating in the ceremony were the municipal
secretary of Education, Olívia Santana, the director of the Institute
of Artistic and Cultural Patrimony of the State of Bahia (Ipac), Júlio
Braga, the superintendent in Bahia of the Institute of National
Historic and Artistic sites (Iphan), Eugênio de Avila Lins, and the
Brazilian minister of Culture, Gilberto Gil.

Mãe Olga died last thursday, 10:30pm from renal failure. Heiress of an
African Royal ancestry, the Arô, of the old kingdom of Ketu, today
part of the modern nation of Benin, Mãe Olga was known for her
determination in keeping the dignity of the religions of African
tradition. She was also recognized as possessing an incomparable
mastery of traditional Ketu practice.

Tata Inquice (the highest rank in the hierarchy of terreiros or
temples of the Angolan nation) of Nsó Mokambo de Nação Angola, Anselmo
Dos Santos said that Mãe Olga can be considered a source of
inspiration and example for all who follow African faiths, regardless
of which tradition they follow. "She now is one of the ancestors who
are the source of the wisdom of candomblé. Thus she will continue to
be present for all of us."

Paulo Souto, the Governor of the State of Bahia said "I consider the
death of Mãe Olga a great loss for Bahia. She was one of the most
significant figures in Bahian history, especially for her important
role in the preservation of the African roots which formed our culture."

She was the most powerful Yansã in Brazil.

[The above notice was compiled and translated from various printed
reports in Portuguese by myself. Only I am responsible for any errors
or faults contained herein. -Eoghan)

[luckymojocourse]

Hi everyone,

I just have a thought and I wondered if anyone had an opinion on it...?
I'm living in Ireland and I have had many friends who are Nigerian,
from different regions of Nigeria. Some are Benin, Yuroba and my
husband is an Ebou.

Now my husband reckons (and he may be stroking his ego here) that the
Ebou peoples magic, which is very similar to laying down of tricks,
rootwork and things like consulting the Oracle..is more powerful than
the Yuroba's magic and the Benin people's magic.

I've never seen anything mentioned about the Ebou's and from my
experience the Yuroba's and Benin people have travelled more or they
would be more inclined to marry people from different cultures.
I'm just curious to see if the Ebou's have contributed to hoodoo in
anyway??

Thanks
~Sara

(I am not a scholar of African languages, but it is my understanding that the Ebou / Ebo of Nigeria and Gambia speak a Bantu language -- that is, they are a Bantu people. African American conjure primarily contains African retentions from the Bantu-speaking people of Gambia, Angola, and the Congo as well as bits and pieces from West African tribes such as the Yoruba and Fon. So your husband is right -- hoodoo, being primarily Bantu, is more like his Ebo tribe's magic than it is like the non-Bantu Yoruba or Fon magic of other tribes in Nigeria and Benin. You can read more of what i have written about this subject at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html#hoodoonot
-- and i hope that Eoghan, who has studied these matters deeply, will tell us more and correct me if i have erred. --cat)

[Lance M Foster]

Howdy

When I was in Nigeria in '96, I lived mainly among the Yoruba of Oyo state. The two other
major ethnic groups of Nigeria were the Ibo/Igbo (mainly represented in the south and
west of Nigeria) and the Hausa-Fulani (of the north, and pretty much Muslim). I lived in
Ibadan and went a lot to Ara.

in general, the Hausa-Fulani ran the military (the Biafran War was primarily between the
Hausa and the Ibo, who lost) while the Ibo were more of the educated and intelligentsia,
and were more individualistic than the Yoruba or Hausa. The Yoruba have always been
traders and money was a big part of the ideology. Magic is used throughout Nigeria; the
Yoruba called it juju. Bad juju is endemic, and when I was there, the military and business
used sorcerers extensively.

As far as magic/juju goes, I can only speak from personal experience about the Yoruba.
Herbal medicine is still important. There were different groups of magic users: priests/
priestesses or babalawo (notable as diviners) dedicated to the different gods like Sango;
hunters dedicated to Ogun and the fighting of witchcraft; and witches (Aje) who primarily
worked evil deep in the bush. Floor washes, sweeping with coconut rib brooms, and
medicinal soaps were used (the soaps were black in color, in a ball shape and mixed for
different purposes). They used bags with personal effluvia for juju. Everyone was paranoid
about their hair clippings but especially about their poop. Anything could be dedicated
and used for juju; one man I knew had a ring made for protection. Muslims tended to use
miniature Koran as amulets and Christians used miniature Bibles, hung around the neck.
People often converted to Christianity or Islam to try and avoid juju, but it was very
common.

Anyway, I don't know what kinds of things the Ibo or Hausa did, but that's some of the
Yoruba ways from the 1990s. One thing for sure, everyone always claims their magic is the
best.

Lance

[Quimbisero]

Hello,

The official word these days is that Ibo (aka Ibou aka Igbo) is a
Niger-Congo Language. It should be noted that until a few years ago it
was considered a Sudanic language. The distinction in this case is a
matter of rarified linguistic debate. It is still hotly debated in
some linguistic circles. What that means is that, presuming those who
classify it as a Bantu derived language are right (and I am not
suggesting they are wrong, I am far from informed enough on the
linguistic material determining these things to hazard a personal
opinion) it separated from the trunk which Kongo and other more
Southern Bantu languages derive a long, long time ago by linguistic
standards. It would place the relative relationship between Kikongo
and Igbo about parallel to that of say Hindu and English. It is being
classified now as a Bantu language. However, it needs be noted, and
herein lies the crux for those who disagree with this classification,
unlike the large body of Bantu languages which show imediate and
obvious similarities, Igbo and it's closely related family of
languages do not demonstrate such similarities. Only through
linguistic analysis and reconstruction can the relation be readily
demonstrated.

That being said, sure there are similarities. The answer lies rather
in the issue of who was transported to the Americas. The number of
Igbo who came to the continental US would have been statistically
small although not nonexistant.

Traditionally, it has been claimed that much of the US slave trade was
West African. However, apart from the obvious cultural survivals which
contradict such claims, the statistical material vailable to us from
new resources such as the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade: A Database on
CD-ROM. (Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, 1999) has
begun a revolution in the thought on these assumptions. It usually
however takes about a generation for public awareness to catch up with
the research.

The fact that field workers were able to collect vocabularies of
african language material, virtually uncorrupted in form during the
period between the two world wars in the rural south, and that
material was pure Kikongo, should give some clue. That cannot be
claimed for any other African language in the US.

All in all however, the similarities noted do suggest that there are
some universals in African Magical practice.

Eoghan

[Kwame Ajamu]

"Quimbisero" <quimbisa@i...> wrote:

> > The fact that field workers were able to collect vocabularies of
> african language material, virtually uncorrupted in form during the
> period between the two world wars in the rural south, and that
> material was pure Kikongo, should give some clue. That cannot be
> claimed for any other African language in the US.
>
> Eoghan

Hello Eoghan,

There is lots of Congo and Angolan left overs in
black culture in North America, but surprisingly a lot of the slaves
were taken from the Western near interior, like for instance from
the what is now Sierra Leon and modern Liberian Guinnea Bissau and
the like, and a lot of what has become known as the Gullah language
is Mande derived.

The fact that there is a town and a prison in Louisiana called
Angola speaks volumes, but I don't know if I would give the nod to
the Congo area as the major population of the North American slave
trade though I would to Brazil, Cuba and other South American
nations.

(Eoghan, i'll be interested in your response to this. I know it comes up at least once a year, but it is an important issue, and you are better qualified to speak on it than anyone else here. --cat)

[Quimbisero]

Kwami,

First, I am not saying that the only Africans imported as a result of
the slave trade to North America were Central Africans. However, the
latest research is stacking up to suggest they were the most
culturally influential and indeed the largest single culture group. A
lot of previous assumptions are being dramatically revised thanks to
new research tools. "The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade: A Database on CD-ROM"
Eltis, David, Stephen D. Behrendt, David Richardson, and Herbert S. Klein.

Also, you have to keep in mind that given the realities of slave life,
you had to have repeated transportation over time from specific
cultural areas to result in any sort of cultural continuity. The
fatality rate precluded cultural retention any other way. The most
significant group for which these conditions applied were Central
Africans. And those are fairly much from where the major cultural
retentions in African American culture appear to derive.

Putting this in a more personal perspective, anyone may have a few
ancestors who were x, y, and z, but if there is only a cultural and
social retention from aancestor culture y, than you really can't call
that person x or z. In a less mathematical way of speaking, my
background is largely Swedish and Irish. However, about the only
cultural influence in my life of Swedish origins in my life is a taste
for strong black coffee. The fact that there are a few SWedish
chromosomes floating around in me hardly justifies my calling the
Swedish embassy.

So my answer is, sure they weren't the only ones, but they represent
the only major discernable cultural legacy.

Eoghan

[Kwame Ajamu]

In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Quimbisero" <quimbisa@i...> wrote:
> >
> Kwami,
>
> I am not saying that the only Africans imported as a result
> of the slave trade to North America were Central Africans. However,
> the latest research is stacking up to suggest they were the most
> culturally influential and indeed the largest single culture group.
> A lot of previous assumptions are being dramatically revised thanks
> to new research tools. "The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade: A Database
> on CD-ROM" Eltis, David, Stephen D. Behrendt, David Richardson, and
> Herbert S. Klein.

This is quite interesting indeed. I had one time thought that,
because of the incessant pilaging of the Congo/Angola area from start
to finish as shown on the slaving registars, the few that were kept,
and the names of many Afrikan arrivals including many of the very
first slave names from Jamestown Virginia, like Anthony Congo and
such, but I thought that I was wrong because I couldn't imagine that
so many could be brought from the Congo over so many years.

[Quimbisero]

Kwame,

I do not want to go on at too great length here, because while it is
pertinent to the discussion of the cultural roots of Hoodoo, it is not
specifically Hoodoo talk. That being said, if Cat will allow one last
remark on this theme, I'd like to clarify a detail about "Congo" in
America.

(It's fine with me, Eoghan. New folks here often need a crash course in Congo history, as we both know, due to so many years of being told that "hoodoo is Voodoo" or "it's all Santeria" or some such. Feel free to raise the Congo flag on a weekly basis, man! Y'know what i mean? Just run into it and boogie! --grateful cat)

So many slaves were coming out of Kongo (the Kingdom) at one point
that one of the Mani Kongo (King of Kongo) put the skids on the trade
in the late sixteen hunderds. By that time, the Portuguese had
intensified their activity in Angola, a few miles to the south.
(Remember, we aren't talking about the modern divisions on the map).
However, the kingdoms of KaKongo, Ndongo and Loango were still trading
slaves up to the colonial takeover in the 19th century. All of those
were Kikongo speaking cultures, and while part of modern day Angola
was in the Kingodm of Kongo, the kingdom of Angola was largely
Kimbundu speaking.

The result of all this is that while many, if not
the majority of those who came to the Americas listed as Congo, were
in fact Bakongo, many were from neighboring areas. Of course, these
cultures were extremely similar, so much so that speakers of one
language might easily learn another regional tongue in a matter of
months, and may well have already done so while in captivity in Africa
prior to being exiled to the Americas.

Congo then,as a term utilized by slavers in America, while
representing a fairly homogenous mix culturally, was none the less a
mix. It would not have included cultural elements from other parts of
Africa, but represented a local conglomerate of distinct but closely
related cultures and peoples. This is why, in Cuba, they speak of
there having been seven 'Congo' languages spoken in Cuba.

Eoghan

[RedWill0w]

In a message dated 1/21/2006 2:48:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,
quimbisa@inquiceweb.com writes:

This is why, in Cuba, they speak of
there having been seven 'Congo' languages spoken in Cuba.

Eoghan



Eoghan,
That's really interesting, and gives me a much clearer picture of things.
I always appreciate your comments and explanations.
Dara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kwame Ajamu]

Well Eoghan, I quess you were right after all...which I had expected
for years anyway, but just couldnt reconcile myself with because of
other factors.

I saw the program on the genetics of new afrikans (Blacks in
america) on wviz, with Henry gates, and it confirmed that a fourth
of the Blacks in america somehow have some degree of Angola/Congo,
ancestry (I consider that whole area The Congo). I had noticed when I
started watching documentaries about the Congo area, that a lot of
the Africans there resembled New Afrikans.

I mean...I know that New Afrikans are an mixture of various tribes
of Afrikan peoples and of Europeans and Asians vis a vis natve
American, and I expected New Afrikans to have features considerably
watered down, I thought that the reason for them not having the very
strong West Afrikan features was because of the mixture, but when I
saw Congo peoples and some even South Afrikan and Zulu people, that
I know, I was puzzled as why we (New Afrikans) resembled South Afrikans
and Zulu more so than West Afrikans.

And why we looked almost to have a Congo distinction in our
countenance. I kow that the Congo peoles and the Zulu are both
descended from the same wave of Bantu migration talked about on the
wviz show and although very few if any new Afrikans were are
descended from Azania (SoutH Afrika, as pointed out in the
documentary) they, Congos, and certain South Afrikan groups, the so-
called Bantu derived groups have somewhat of a structural similarity.

But when I saw many Congos, like matombo the basketball player and
many many others, plus some of the physical characteristics of many
Congo women like a paticular type of steateopigia, if I am spelling
that correctly (no pun or mischive, another misspelled word,
intended), I knew that the Congo was had a strong influence, but it
is almost as if we new Afrikans were the same people, for I can
pretty much tell the differnce between many West Afrikans and
American Blacks, but I cant tell the differnce between some of the
Congos that I have seen and many American Blacks, even though i
think that my people were mende.

Ps, I Am being divined over now to decide if I should get scratched
or not Peace.

(Kwame, this new genetic evidence is really wonderful, isn't it? --cat)

[Quimbisero]

Kwame,

A very brief reply here. Be very careful to investigate thoroughly the
background of anyone offering to scratch you. Find out how the
community in which they live and work views them. Look at their
behavior toward their family and friends and other godchildren. Does
this person really look like a spiritual person in their behavior? By
that I mean, are they thoughtful, considerate, concerned about people,
well kempt, living a good, decent life? If you cannot answer these
basic questions, you do not put your soul in their hands.

There are many out there who are just doing it for money. And you had
better be certain that they even are legitimate. Do you really know
enough to be able to judge? Which in part is to ask are you a fluent
Spanish speaker and have you read all the classic literature in
Spanish on the subject, because none of that is available in any form
in English. Go slow, go very slow.

Eoghan

[Etudiant Ancetres]

Hey Kwame,

What's the name of this show again with Morgan Freeman about Blacks in America? I missed it and would like to see it

--Marc

[Kwame Ajamu]

Marc / Etudiant Ancetres <enfantdesancetres@...> wrote:
> >
> Hey Kwame,
>
> What's the name of this show again with Morgan Freeman about
> Blacks in America? I missed it and would like to see it
>
> --Marc

---It's a special during Black history month and it has Henry Louis
Gates as its host and narrator.

[catherineyronwode]

With reference to the Brice, Adams-Kilty, Jordan, and other sites (oh,
and also the George Wahington Mount verson slave quaters, not mentioned
recently, but in the past), see also this:

North American Archaeologist

Issue: Volume 21, Number 1 / 2000

Pages: 19 - 33

Did the Gods of Africa Die? A Re-Examination of A
Carroll House Crystal Assemblage

Laura J. Galke

Abstract:

The discovery of an African-American ritual cache
within the eighteenth-century Carroll House provides
an example of a West African-derived nkisi (minkisi
pl). While the exact meaning behind the inclusion of
each artifact is not fully understood, the items
within the cache are consistent with other
documented African minkisi. In this paper, I
consider how the images present on
previously-excavated ceramic fragments from one of
the Carroll House nkisi assemblages yields clues
about why they were incorporated into the nkisi.
Once the images upon these ceramics are examined as
iconographic symbols, their inclusion as part of the
nkisi is not only understandable but perhaps
imperative toward the overall understanding of the
assemblage.

-- Just trying to keep everyone up to date on these artciles...

cat yronwode

[Mike Rock]

On 4/21/06, motherkali <redjasper@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Was googling "buckeye" + "Hoyt's Cologne" for a little flyer I'm
>
> writing, and happened to come across this:
>
> http://www.policygame.net/article.shtml ... s_luck.txt
>
> "Johnson's "gamblin' woman" uses a mojo to bring in the winnings, but
> she also "trims" or marks her card deck, so that she can cheat a
> little, too. Because she is a card sharp, it is very likely that her
> particular mojo bag contains lucky hand root and five-finger grass,
> both of which are reputed to "aid in all the work that five fingers
> can do."
>
> No attribution, and I haven't been able to find it in the course
>
> lessons or at luckymojo.com - but I'm SURE I've read it before, and it
> sounds JUST LIKE YOU.
>

Michaele if you Google the first sentence, "Johnson's "gamblin' woman"
uses a mojo to bring in the winnings" -- you can wrap up the mystery
in one. The first hit is at luckymojo.com.

- mike
--

http://www.mike-rock.com

[conjurebyking]

Interesting Article - "China Bans Voodoo Dolls"

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12958900/site/n ... 1=%c2%8199


(There are more interesting things about this article than it itself seems to know: (1) the voodoo doll that are being banned in China are "imported from Thailand" -- they are not in any way African or African-diasporic. (2) The vast majority of supposedly African and African-diasporic vooodoo dolls currently for sale in the USA are actually (you guessed it) "Made in China". Weird, huh? --cat)

[Katherine Zimmerman Piehl]

On 5/26/06, rwest02 <rwest02@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> Interesting Article - "China Bans Voodoo Dolls"
>
> http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12958900/site/n ... 1=%c2%8199
>
>
> (There are more interesting things about this article than it itself seems
> to know: (1) the voodoo doll that are being banned in China are "imported
> from Thailand" -- they are not in any way African or African-diasporic. (2)
> The vast majority of supposedly African and African-diasporic vooodoo dolls
> currently for sale in the USA are actually (you guessed it) "Made in China".
> Weird, huh? --cat)



Greetings Cat-

The ban obviously means this is SO serious, yet the dolls are being referred
to as, 'toys'. Interesting.

I would be leery of purchasing any doll babies that didn't come form a
credible worker because of not knowing of what was 'put' in them.
Isn't it best to make your own, or at least have them made by someone
reputable?
I am very new at this.

Thank you for your time.

Kindest Regards,
-Katherine
#717


> >
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Auntie Sindy Todo]

----- Original Message -----
From: "rwest02" <rwest02@yahoo.com>
To: <hrcourse@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: [hrc] China Bans Voodoo Dolls


Interesting Article - "China Bans Voodoo Dolls"

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12958900/site/newsweek/?GT1=*99


(There are more interesting things about this article than it itself seems
to know: (1) the voodoo doll that are being banned in China are "imported
from Thailand" -- they are not in any way African or African-diasporic. (2)
The vast majority of supposedly African and African-diasporic vooodoo dolls
currently for sale in the USA are actually (you guessed it) "Made in China".
Weird, huh? --cat)

Hey Cat, my husband brought this to my attention the other day. I had to go
through a complete explanation about doll babies etc. Sigh. The good thing
was, I went to the Big Red Book, looked up the page all about doll-babies
and could let him read for himself! Another advantage of owning this book,
even if you've already done the course!! yeeha!! I did try to go the
website, but just couldn't get a doll-baby page to come up. What is it,
please? -X,Sindy

(It's a page with a broken link, and thanks for bringing that to my attention -- i will be working on the web site tomorrow. --cat)

[Kwame Ajamu]

Hello, recently I came across a book called ancient semitic magic
(authors name slips me right now, but will get that back to ya when I
remeber or go look and find it out at the library or once I buy the
book)

(Would it be "Semitic Magic: Its Origins and Development" by R. Campbell Thompson? That is a GREAT book, a classic!, first published in 1908 or so, and reprinted by Weiser.)

and in it, found on papayruses from thousands of years ago are, to
remove curse take chicken and circle ones head three times with chicken
(chanting something ancient which I dont have in front of me to relate
right now)afterwards sacrificing the chicken to some ancient arameic
god or demon. Now if that dont sound very similar to Congo and many
Afrikan perscriptions for same or dispersing negativity, I dont know
what does.

(Well, Kwame, here's the kicker, that same curse removal trick is STILL practiced by Jews to this day. No lie. Cultural linkages like this are what lie at the heart of what i have been teaching all along, that hoodoo (which is mostly Congo) has incredible resemblances to ancient Jewish (Semitic) magic, and this is why i (like Marcus Garvey, Henri Gamache, Ishmael Reed, and others before me) support the notions
(1) that the Jewish leader Moses was Black, (2) that Jesus probably was too -- because the Jews were at one time a much darker-skinned people than they became in Europe, and (3) that the Beta Israel Jews of Ethiopia (black-skinned Africans, sometimes known as the Falasha Jews, who have the Jewish priestraft Y-chromosome gene in their DNA) and the Lemba Jews (black-skinned Bantu-speaking Africans who self-identify as Jews and who also have the Cohen modal haplotype on the Y-chromosome) are of the so-called "Ten Lost Tribes" of Israel. You might also want to pick up another rare classic -- "Hebrewisms of West Africa" -- if you can find it. There is a world of research to be done in this area. --cat)

Another is that there is a spell to some sorcerer from using ones
foottracks,sound familiar, and using it in some way to hurt or harm the
petitioner.

what got me was the stark similarity of the foottrack magick
and other spells using cemetary dust and similar to do harm or whatever.

(If you are talking about the same book, you will also find in there some ancient Jewish "dog versus cat" tricks for breaking up a couple that are 100% the same in African American hoodoo totday. --cat)

They even petitioned some god or demon to conjole or command a spirit of the dead to work for the pettitioner to hurt an enemy or to secure
posterity, love whatever.

(True. It is all there. --cat)

Kwame Ajamu

(And, again, i hd to go look up the names to place at the end of the post, but it was easier thatn the others today, because it was in the email address. --cat)

[conjureworker]

Both of these books are available at amazon right now.

blessings,
donna

1) "Semitic Magic: Its Origins and Development" by R. Campbell
Thompson

> > (That is a GREAT book, a classic!,
> first published in 1908 or so, and
> reprinted by Weiser --cat)

2) -- "Hebrewisms of West Africa" -- if you can find it.

(Thanks for the heads up! --cat)

[Mike Rock]

On 9/27/06, Kwame Ajamu <bassreeves2003@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > and in it, found on papayruses
> from thousands of years ago are, to
> remove curse take chicken and
> circle ones head three times with chicken
> (chanting something ancient which
> I dont have in front of me to relate
> right now)afterwards sacrificing
> the chicken to some ancient aramaic
> god or demon.Now if that dont sound
> very similar to Congo and many
> Afrikan perscriptions for same or
> dispersing negativity, I dont know
> what does.
>
> (Well, Kwame, here's the kicker,
> that same curse removal trick is STILL
> practiced by Jews to this day. --cat)

Apparently this rite is used in the Jewish community in
connection with holiday of Rosh Hoshana:

http://villagevoice.com/gallery/0640,40 ... 01,30.html

mike rock
http://www.mike-rock.com

(That's it, Mike. Thanks for he link. --cat)

[Quimbisero]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Mike R." <mojomiguel@...> wrote:

> > > (Well, Kwame, here's the kicker,
> > that same curse removal trick is STILL
> > practiced by Jews to this day. --cat)

According to legend, the Jews left Africa (Egypt is in Africa) to
settle Israel. I say according to legend, because it seems that there
is strong archaeological evidence to contradict the Bible on the story
about the conquest of Israel by the Israelites.

However, I don't want to get into a big debate on something that off
topic and it is far from my specialty. My point is that there are
strong links between Semitic cultures and Africa, whether they have
anything to do with Egypt or not. Actually there was far more cultural
exchange between the southern Arabian peninsula and the East coast of
Africa than between most of Africa and the Egyptians.

Eoghan Ballard

(You and i disagree on this Eoghan, but that's okay. I see definite Egyptian literary links to the Jewsh Psalms of David, and i see the DNA links between Ashkenazzy Jews in Europe and the Black Jews of Ethiopia, and the Black Lemba Jews as well and i just go, "Okay, that's the way it is," and i figure that the archaeologists can catch up later. --cat)

[Quimbisero]

cat wrote (on the subject of similarities
between Congo magic and Semitic magic and their
overlaps within African American hoodoo):

> > (You and i disagree on this Eoghan,
> but that's okay. I see definite
> Egyptian literary links to the
> Jewsh Psalms of David, and i see the
> DNA links between Ashkenazy Jews
> in Europe and the Black Jews of
> Ethiopia, and the Black Lemba Jews
> as well and i just go, "Okay,
> that's the way it is," and i figure
> that the archaeologists can catch
> up later. --cat)

We probably don't especially. I have no doubt that cultural exchange
and influence occurred between ancient Egypt and Israel. How could it
have not?

I was referring strictly to the archaeological evidence (as determined
by some recent Israeli archaeologists) which suggests that the
biblical accounts of the conquest of the Canaanites by an outside
force (the Israelites) may never have occurred. What some more recent
archaeological evidence suggests (and I know this is still hotly
debated) is that the subsequent Israeli culture evolved out of the old
Canaanite culture rather than having been imposed by military victory.
There are lots of reasons for modern people to reject these views
which have nothing to do with their possible validity.

That leaves completely open the likelihood that some segment of these
early societies spent a period of time in Egypt. Even if they didn't,
and it is likely some did, as we all know from recent events,
political and especially military history can be subject to a great
deal of revisionism. Whatever the origins of the early Israelites, that
there was interchange with Egypt is not something I would contest.

My only interest is to challenge people to realize that exchange
occurred between cultures at many intersections. Some of them may have
been more extensive and persistent than those with which we are
familiar due to the privileging they receive from Western traditions.

Eoghan

[Kwame Ajamu]

---
In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Quimbisero" <quimbisa@...> wrote:
> >
> --- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Mike R." <mojomiguel@> wrote:
>
> > > (Well, Kwame, here's the kicker,
> > > that same curse removal trick is STILL
> > > practiced by Jews to this day. --cat)
>
> According to legend, the Jews left Africa (Egypt is in Africa) to
> settle Israel. I say according to legend, because it seems that
> there is strong archaeological evidence to contradict the Bible on
> the story about the conquest of Israel by the Israelites.
>
> However, I don't want to get into a big debate on something that
> off topic and it is far from my specialty. My point is that there are
> strong links between Semitic cultures and Africa, whether they have
> anything to do with Egypt or not. Actually there was far more
> cultural exchange between the southern Arabian peninsula and the East
> coast of Africa than between most of Africa and the Egyptians.
>
> Eoghan Ballard
>
> (You and i disagree on this Eoghan, but that's okay. I see
> definite Egyptian literary links to the Jewsh Psalms of David, and i
> see the DNA links between Ashkenazy Jews in Europe and the Black
> Jews of Ethiopia, and the Black Lemba Jews as well and i just
> go, "Okay, that's the way it is," and i figure that the
> archaeologists can catch up later. --cat)

I have two pet theories on this subject of Afrikan and semitic
cultural exchange. yes it has been proven, in my mind beyond a
shadow of a doubt, that thier are some psalms and some books of
proverbs in the book 'we" call the bible, to be almost verbatim
copies of some texts out of ancient Khemet (ham--chem of the bible)
that many call egypt today.

But anyway, their was either some very ancient culture that both
Semitic and khemetic and the broader north, northeastern and north
central parts of Afrika, along with the whole so-called fertile
cresent region drew from. Or, Ancient Khemet being the halfway point
between western Asia and the north to north central area of the
continent of Afrika, it was the diffusion point of culture for both
regions. I believe both are probably true. That an ancient culture
of peoples who were ancestors to the original Iberian peoples,
described by some archeologist as a small people with negroid type
features, were the progenitors of an ancient culture known to us
today by its mythological name of Atlantis were the inhabitants of
ancient Scotland, Ireland, all of north and northeast Afrika,
Mesopototamia, southern Italy, Naples, the whole Iberian peninnsula,
the Ionian penninsula, and this culture of almost pygmy type stature
are the early founders of modern day culture and civilization all
over the world. And before they created the civilization mythlogized
as atlantis they created what has been mytholized as lemuria, which
is pre Mohenjo-Daro India-Pakistan-Afghanistan, and Indonesia,
originating from central Afrika and the whole North Afrikan region,
only pressing further south after the cataclismic pole shits and the
last ending of the ice-age.

Kwame Ajamu

(Well, i won't go as far as Lemuria with you, Kwame, but i am watching DNA research closely, and so far it points to an African ancestry for all the cultures we have today, including also most of the technologies we identify with cvilizations. --cat)

[RedWill0w]

In a message dated 12/11/2006 2:57:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
drkioni@drkioni.com writes:

> >This is why I tell clients "if it
>takes me 1 month or six months, your work will be done


Great post, Dr. K., thank you.

Dara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Douglas Lewit]

It is my observation that Hoodoo contains a mixture of many paradigms (world views), and this is a source of confusion for me.

(Your "source of confusion" may stem from your idea that hoodoo is "a mixture of many paradigms (world views)". This is not the case.

(The basic world view of conjure is the basic Southern rural -- and more recently Northern / urban -- African American world view, which is actually a fairly coherent world view. Perhaps if you were to study a bit on African American culture, this would become clearer to you.

(I think you may have taken my statements that various magical traditions have functioned as ADmixtures to hoodoo and confused this with hoodoo itself being a mixture. An admixure is something added in; it is not the thing itself. --cat)

As you have already pointed out, the roots of root work are in the Congo of Africa, but there is also a strong Christian Baptist influence in the Hoodoo culture. I find this a little confusing.

(Your confustion is understandable, but i hope to clear it up: Of all the African magical traditions, hoodoo most closely resembles the traditions of the Congo -- and thus it does have its roots in the Congo. But African Americans are AMERICANS and have been so for hundreds of years -- and in some cases their families have been in the USA since the 1500s.

(Some had Christian ancestors in Africa, as this was the official religion of the Congo from the mid-1400s onward, and thus their major "conversion" was not from Congo religion to Christianity, but from Catholicism to Protestantism. Others came from various African tribal groups and were converted from their indigenous religion(s) to Christianity in the same way that the Scandinavians and Celts of Europe were -- at the point of a sword.

(In any case, after hundreds of years, the majority of African Americans have accepted and made Christianity their own -- but with small cultural varitions, similar to those practiced by other groups whose conversions to Christianity took p;ace earlier. The Nordics added Yule trees to Christianity, and the Italians added the tradition of eating marzipan lambs at Easter -- but few people find those developemtns "confusing."

(These variations and others like them are nothing more than evidence of historical synthesis, and they are not unique to Christianity or to Christian converts, either.

(You have mentioned in the past that you came from a Jewish background. Perhaps if i give you an analogy from Jewish history you will see the parelllels more clearly. Jewish magical beliefs have their roots in ancient Middle Eastern culture, but after the diaspora of the Roman era, Jews dispersed in several directions, and many also remained behind in the Middle East. The magical pratcices of Ashkenazy Jews, Sephardic Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Lemba (African) Jews, and Ethiopian (African) Jews are quite different, as are their folkways, culinary predilicitions, marriage customs, and so forth. Surely you can see how these regional variations in Judasism parallel the regional variations in Christianity as it has been incorporated among a variety of pre-existing cultural traditions.

(You call African American folkways "confusing," if you were to pull back and see the parallels between these and other cultural syntheses, i think you would see that hoodoo developed very straightforwardly during the course of African American cultural history. --cat)

I know that root workers often recite Biblical passages during the casting of spells.

(That is correct. Jews originated the use of the Bible for magical work. Many Christians, including African American Christians, have followed suit. See the Lesson on Psalms and other scripture in hoodoo. --cat)

[However], there are several places in the Bible where magical work is strongly prohibited. Leviticus 19:31 and Deuteronomy 18:10 are the two that I know of, but there are plenty of others.

(As explained already, in the Lesson on African American Christian denominations, some Black Christians -- notably members of the Church of God in Christ (COGIC) do not approve of conjure pratices, citing exactly those same portions of scripture.

(However, and this is extremely important for you to understand, the question of which eclesiastical authorities within the various denominations of Judaism and Christianits support, are neutral toward, or condemn magic is not within the scope of this course. Those issues are best studiesd by taking a course on the history of religion. --cat)

Most strict Christians and Jews frown upon any occult practice, even divination and white magic. So by what logic do the practitioners of Hoodoo combine the magic of the Congo with the theology of Western Christianity?

(Practitioners of hoodoo are obviously not "strict Christians" of the type you describe, so the point is moot. This course is NOT about the prohibitions placed upon magic by "strict Christians and Jews" because, frankly, members of those groups would not be taking this course in the first place. -cat)

(A lot of religio-racial theories and opinions deleted. --cat)

[...] different root workers have very different ethics.

(The same variation in ethics is seen among White Christian folk magicians, Hindu folk magicians, Tibetan Buddhist folk magicians, etc. It is not a variation specific to African American folk magicians. --cat)

(More personal religious opinions deleted. --cat)

I think all forms of folk magic are very interesting. I'm just trying to get a better handle on the Hoodoo culture and understand its unusual mixture of Christian faith and Congo magic.

(This "mixture", as you call it, is anything BUT "unusual." About 1/10th of the people in the USA are African American. Not all African Americans practice or have grown up knowing a lot about hoodoo, but the number who come from such families is significant and therefore the concepts are not "unusual."

(I think that most of your confusion stems from a simple lack of knowledge about African American history. I suggest that in order to lay some of these questions to rest, you listen to the podcasts of the Lucky Mojo Hoodoo Rootwork Hour that deal with Congo History and Magic, featuring Eoghan Ballard.

(In addition, with reference to the vast swaths of religious opining and questioning that i deleted from your post, i think you have a mistaken notion that members of a few "strict" or restrictively anti-magical denominations of Jews and Christians may somehow exercise influence over members of non-restrictive and magic-accepting denominations of Jews and Christians, when in fact this is not the case. Each denomination sticks pretty closely to policing its own members and does not mess with adherents of other denominations. --cat)

Douglas Lewit #1144.

(Please, when posting, do not state opinions on religious matters. I regularly send back posts that consist of nothing but religious oinions and i always delete religious opinions from posts that deal primarily with questions about magical practices and / or African American cultiural history. Thanks. --cat)

[Abena Asanti]

> (In addition, with reference to
> the vast swaths of religious opining
> and questioning that i deleted from
> your post, i think you have a mistaken
> notion that members of a few "strict"
> or restrictively anti-magical
> denominations of Jews and Christians
> may somehow exercise influence over
> members of non-restrictive and
> magic-accepting denominations of Jews
> and Christians, when in fact this is
> not the case. Each denomination sticks
> pretty closely to policing its own
> members and does not mess with
> adherents of other denominations.
> --cat)

Wow, I never knew that there is such extreme scrutiny of African practices and culture. Do you regularly have to defend it? What a task!

(More than you will ever know, Abena. Thank you for noticing. --cat)

But I did want to add something: Black churches tend to overstep those policing rules and police EVERBODY! LOL I grew up being taught that everybody was going to hell, for doing magic, mistreating fellow members, wearing pants, disobeying the laws of the land, wearing make up (to name a FEW) -- they were very strict and conservative as far as morals. Even though there were "those women" that people would go see in extreme circumstances (cheating husband, interference from another woman, trying to catch Mr. Right) it was something done secretly, and always denied. But, my point was that Black churches tend to police the whole United States from the pulpit even citing other denominations that are in jeopardy of being hell bound.

(LOL! Well, that's the case with many a church, but, you know, i also have regular church pastors among my customers and clients, too. So again, there is a lot of variation, and no monolithic "one way to be a Black Church Member." --cat)

It's funny to see other cultures scrutinizing African American spirituality (and morality and ethics) while growing up hearing the spirituality of everyone else scrutinized by the black church. I'm laughing they think this system is flawed and I've been taught their system is flawed.

Abena Asanti

(Thanks for making us both, laugh, Abena, 'cause sometimes it get's difficult for me to see the humour in this. You made my day. --cat)

[Madame_Nadia]

Miss cat wrote:
> >
> (You have mentioned in the past that
> you came from a Jewish background.
> Perhaps if i give you an analogy from
> Jewish history you will see the
> parelllels more clearly. Jewish magical
> beliefs have their roots in ancient
> Middle Eastern culture, but after the
> diaspora of the Roman era, Jews
> dispersed in several directions, and
> many also remained behind in the Middle
> East. The magical pratcices of Ashkenazy
> Jews, Sephardic Jews, Mizrahi Jews,
> Lemba (African) Jews, and Ethiopian
> (African) Jews are quite different, as
> are their folkways, culinary
> predilicitions, marriage customs, and so
> forth. --cat)

Though I was born in Moldova, I grew up in Israel. Israel is
a mix of Jews from many backgrounds. Often groups don't
agree with each other and there is quite a lot of separatism
that can be seen in the customs and views of different
groups. However, no matter if we'd look at Ashkenazy or
Mizrahi Jews � Pesach (Passover), Yom Kippur, circumcision,
etc. are observed on the same days and in the same manner
(with very minor variations).

(That's correct -- and that's why i mentioned that what
varies by region (and by the cultures with which various
groups have come into contact) are not the holidays, but
what i called the "folkways, culinary predilicitions,
marriage customs, and so forth." --cat)

For instance, while Sephardic Jews eat lentils on Passover
and Ashkenazy Jews do not, in this religion all Jews are
still expected to eat mazza (unleavened bread) on Passover.

(Right. The Matzo is religious in charcater, but the lentils
are a regional adaptation. That's exactly what i was getting
at. Here are some more examples: Jews in America are widely
known for their fondness for Lox (smoked Salmon) and cream
cheese on bagels, which is a combination that derives from
Germanic European culinary traditions. But the Lemba Jews do
not eat smoked Salmon with cream cheese on bagels. Likewise,
ruggelach, (ruggele, rugelach, ruguluch, spelled various
ways, but you know what i mean, i think) are Polish,
Lithuanian, and Russian Jewish in origin, and are not a
beloved pastry "just like bubeh used to make" among
Sephardic Jews. Moving beyond culinary folkways, it is
considered proper among Ashkenazy Jews to name a baby for a
recently deceased relative, but bad luck to name for a
living person; while among the Sephardics, it is considred
an honour to name a baby for a living relative. So it goes.
--cat)

During Passover the majority of Jewish-owned stores (I'd say
95%) in Israel do not sell any type of bread besides kosher
mazza. Now, this is a uniquely Israeli experience, which is
quite different from the experience of practicing Jews who
live outside of Israel.

(You bet. In the USA, most Jewish owned stores contunue to
sell leavened bread -- and many assimilated Jews will eat it
too -- except at the one specific Pesach meal. This has
exact parallels with varying degrees of strctness in the
Lenten practices of Christians: some will refuse meat during
Lent; others will eat meat will make a personally meaningful
choice to abstain from something they normally enjoy, such
as candies or soda pop; and many will eat fish on Good
Friday but make no other change in their diet for Lent.
--cat)

in any case, I feel that HooDoo is similar in that sense.
While rootworkers have variations in their styles (rural vs.
urban, for example), the core of this tradition is unique
and solid. It is a Southern African-American core. With
roots in the Congo and historical religio-cultural
syncretism, still a High John is a High John is a High John
... in HooDoo it is used for its magical properties and not
for High John's medical laxative purposes (as it would
probably be used by the Native Americans).

(See HHRM: Native Americans used High John as a male power
root. I believe that African herb doctors, stranded in the
New World without their own familiar roots, picked up this
magical usage of "Man Root" from the Native people. --cat)

Wishing you a blessed day,

Nadezda Karuna Potter 1166 (G)

(You too, dear -- and we'll see you on Thursday! --cat
(jonesing for lox and cream cheese on bagels now!))