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LMHR Hour Chat Log May 24, 2006 Visting the Graveyard - Chat Log
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MissMichaele
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LMHR Hour Chat Log May 24, 2006 Visting the Graveyard - Chat Log
2006-8) May 24: Open Forum Call-In Show on the Topic of Visiting the Graveyard
with Eoghan Ballard, Ms. Robin, Dr. Christos Kioni Dara Anslowar, and Catherine Yronwode
MISS CAT: Graveyard work is very important and widespread, but people new to hoodoo may not know anything about it.We make a spiritual connection, ask for help, take graveyard dirt or leave something *in* the grave, offer payment, and also take dirt home with us. Such work is found in many traditions throughout world.
(CATHERINE YRONWODE and EOGHAN BALLARD note technical problems that prevent QUEEN MABULLA from being present.)
EOGHAN: Yes, essential, foundation of much Palero work. Lots of work with the dead, so you must go where they live. Essential to Central African practice. Features in both initiation and ongoing work.
DARA: I also do a lot of cemetery work and other work with spirits of dead. Often call in ancestors on behalf of clients especially where case is difficult; sometimes involves going to graveyard.
NAGASIVA: I do little graveyard work except collecting dirt for the shop and in association with pets; I have kept parts of pets who have died. Recently got dirt from (our late dog) Eris's grave.
MISS CAT: Do you call on Eris to help you?
NAGASIVA: No, just loving communion and greeting. I don't work with the spirits of the dead much.
DARA: Eoghan, how would you advise someone to deal with ancestor who was buried alongside someone they had major problems with?
EOGHAN: Go to grave and lay line of ash down the middle between beloved ancestor and the other.
DARA: What kind of ash?
EOGHAN: Whatever you normally use; in my line of work, usually cigars, which we use a lot. Could also use wood ashes, appropriate herbs.
MISS CAT: I use ash from my kitchen fire (wood cook stove), inspired by something I read about 35 years ago about Hindu practice. A woman had been forbidden to worship Siva, who is worshiped with ashes from cremation fires in a cemetery. She tells her mother, in a poem she wrote, "I will use the ashes from the cooking fire," in other words, "I WILL find a way." This is personal to me, not widespread.
EOGHAN: Hearth ashes a fine old tradition.
MS. ROBIN: I usually work with my ancestors, sometimes soldiers (commanding work); sometimes I tell clients to go to their ancestors; also to get some dirt from the grave *at time of burial.* Offer ancestors whatever they enjoyed in life -- favorite candy, Coke, whatever was their favorite.
MISS CAT: I follow traditional practice of leaving money for spirits I don't know personally, esp. adventurous, curious spirits. But when you work with a spirit for a while, you will begin to be aware of their preferences.
DARA: I tell clients to prepare a meal for ancestors at the completion of successful work.
EOGHAN: I have had dead contact me in dreams to express their wishes. I dreamed of entering a cemetery and *hearing* a surname. Of course after that I had to go find them. I found the surname on a stone which was almost illegible.
MISS CAT: Someone once called out to me from their grave as I was walking thru the cemetery where my mother would be buried; a friendly stranger, died circa World War I, who just wanted to help, a kind of help I had never sought before.
SINDY TODO: My husband's father is a Japanese-American veteran and buried in Japanese-American cemetery. I brought him favorite candy, gambling equipment, dimes. Wonderful experience. I had shopping-bag full of gifts and tokens. All the spirits of surrounding graves were very present. Environment at my house has been amazing since then.
MISS CAT: Queen Mabulla recommends leaving offering at crossroads nearest cemetery as well as at grave.
EOGHAN: I leave coins at entrance to cemetery as general notice to all spirits, and for permission to enter.
MISS CAT: One man told me he just *throws* coins into cemetery, for everybody.
DARA: I know someone who throws coins over shoulder as he leaves.
MISS CAT: Yes, I was taught that. I'll try anything once. Sometimes I have used all three methods at once -- coins upon entering, at the gave, and upon leaving.
I've found money lying around in cemeteries, so I know others do this.
I've also read surveys of graves that include remarks like "this gravestone was in good condition and had three nickels on it." So we know that many people do this.
NAGASIVA: I once offered Eris (our Portuguese Water Dog who died a few years back) a Mercury dime dressed with Black Arts oil.
MISS CAT: Which includes black dog hair, Eris being a black dog.
NAGASIVA: Yes, in fact this batch had been made with her hair.
DARA (?): Significance of where you place coins - head or feet?
MISS CAT: I've been taught various traditions - put money in their hand, at their head, at their feet - and it also depends on what kind of help you want: from their hands, from their head, from their heart, etc. For instance, some say to do enemy work and smite someone, use dirt from the hands. Once you've learned and absorbed all of the methods, you'll know in the moment what's right for you to do.
MS. ROBIN: I visited a cemetery in Louisiana. The graves are not buried underground, but in tombs on surface. A friend of mine in Algiers gave me dirt from inside the tomb - many families buried all in one tomb. After a year, the body decomposes, is swept up and put in a bag to the side to leave room for the next body.
Gifts of all kinds may be left, not just money.
MISS CAT: Use of Chinese spirit money or "hell banknotes" very interesting to me. "Hell just means "afterlife," probably closer to our idea of heaven. You can write petitions on it. It's very pretty.
MS. ROBIN: Yes, it comes in red, blue, green.
MISS CAT: Yes, and has picture of Bank of Hell on the back, where the spirits make their deposits. But I still prefer to use a dime. You can always wrap a dime in Hell money.
DARA: I copy down the info on the headstone.
MISS CAT: I also read whatever survivors say about them on the headstone. I read the inscription. I've noticed that people who are buried far from home sometimes feel lonesome when you go by.
DARA: Some cover their heads when they go to a graveyard, or put holy water or some protective oil on back of neck.
MISS CAT: That's a Catholic tradition. I've seen, in Europe, little old ladies selling lace mantillas outside cemeteries.
DARA: Yes, I was raised Catholic but learned it from someone who was not.
EOGHAN: Fairly widespread tradition, also in a number of African cultures.
MS. ROBIN: Eoghan - in some African tribes, have heard they would eat (part of) their dead before burial to gain that person's spirit.
EOGHAN: Lots of stories about cannibalism in Africa. "Cannibalism" was often synonym for "evil witchcraft." My studies confined to one area, so I don't know about the entire continent and its hundreds of cultures, but it is not well documented.
MISS CAT: Need to take cannibalism stories with a grain of salt. Unusual claims require unusual evidence.
EOGHAN: Yes, most of these stories were second-hand, plenty of room for fabrication. However, plenty of documentation for eating the dead in the Pacific, South America. But re: Africa, this is partly fabrication, partly confusion. Africans tended to accuse their enemies of cannibalism, meaning it metaphorically, which got taken literally by outside observers. When they did say "it really happened," they were usually talking about a magical process - which they don't distinguish from material processes. Materialists don't pick up on this, and get confused.
MISS CAT: Look up the term "blood libel" or "blood libel against Jews" - I come from a culture traditionally accused of this. Historically, Jews are oftn accused of cannibalism, of drinking human blood in rituals, even though Jewish dietary law involves draining all the blood *out* of a slaughtered animal, and no blood is consumed. So as a person accused of this, I say, don't believe everythign you hear.
MS. ROBIN: Has anyone dealt with the grave of a spirit who was so unhappy, they DID NOT want to be disturbed?
DARA: I have heard of such experiences. I move on when someone doesn't want me to talk to them.
MISS CAT: As I wrote in course, people from different cultures have differing attitudes to the dead. Those who come from cultures who fear the dead probably should not work with them. You may also run across graves of people from such cultures who don't want to be approachd; respect what THEY were taught.
DARA: Come to think of it, I have had such an experience. Site deep in mountains, no markings to indicate the grave. Actually felt like I was in danger. We left.
MISS CAT: But Robin, you spoke of *unhappy* spirits. I've been hit with a ton of anger, regret, confusion or fear - emotions not suitable to the work I wanted to do; I often leave offerings just out of pity or sympathy.
RON: Re Dara's comment about being threatened: has anyone dealt with hostile spirits? What would you do?
DARA: I just left. Got to the point where spirit pulled my hair. We were camping, I made group leave.
MISS CAT: If you've carried home something you don't wish to carry home, cross water. Stand on bridge over water and say Lord's Prayer. I do that when I carry home *anything* I don't want to take home, not just hostility but anger, sorrow.
DARA: Hostile spirit I encountered may *not* have been human. I've heard of other such encounters deep in the woods. Walk home *in* a stream if that happens to you.
MISS CAT: Spirits can cross water - but they can't follow you over it if you say not to. I generally cross over culvert on way home from cemetery.
BEATRICE: Whenever we went to visit my Irish-German great-grandmother, we'd stop and visit family graves on the way. She made us stop once to collect wintergreen from a friend's grave. She said, "to know what someone is really like, go back to their grave and see what's growing on it." A good person may have beautiful or medicinal plants on their grave.
MISS CAT: We often have "cemetery roses" - hardy, drought-tolerant roses - on graves. Some thrive and some don't. Others plant resurrection lilies (known as "naked ladies" out here) on graves. Those graves hold my favorite spirits, because you can tell they were loved. The naked ladies come back year after year, sometimes for a century.
DARA: In cemetery where my grandfather is buried, there's a tree I haven't identified yet. It's so black and dark - leaves and all - that it looks like it's absorbing all light.
BEATRICE: A spirit tree? If you have a branch of your family suffering from multi-generation curse - can you start working with those ancestors once curse is broken?
MISS CAT: You'll have to feel your way through that. The dead do change, as Queen Mabulla always says, so they may have *been cursed* but not *be cursing.* I know your background - some strange people, not all nice [BEATRICE laughing], but it's worthwhile to see if they've mellowed. I have some ancestors like that.
EOGHAN: People's understanding of how the universe works changes after death. St. Oram, disciple of St. Columcille (exiled from Ireland for political reasons; founded Iona monastery). While building chapel, work of each day was undone each night. Were told that if someone were buried alive under foundation, this would stop. St. Oram volunteered. Chapel work went on without interruption.
Weeks later, Columcille dug St. Oram out, found head. Oram's head said, "Other world not as you imagined, different from our teachings about it." So Columcille buried the head again.
MISS CAT: Work with fresh dead if you want power; as time passes, the dead are said to lose interest in the world of the living - though I know of some exceptions, even hundreds of years dead. However, with your own ancestors you can go back a lot farther. Your own ancestors are best to work with; next, your friends; after that, anyone who is interested. In some cases, especially for protection of your body, only your ancestors can help.
DARA: Occasionally you will find the spirit of someone who did conjure work in life. A VERY valuable resource if they agree to help you.
MISS CAT: Some of our students have experienced this with their own ancestors.
MS. ROBIN: People who died violently are very strong for "black magic".
DARA: Or *very small* amounts of such graveyard dirt for all types of magic.
MISS CAT: Those who have *committed* violence also strong for negative magic.
Some people like to keep different kinds of dirt: A justice-minded murder victim, for instance, is valuable for all kinds of justice work; but your sweet old grandma may only be interested in protecting *you.*
DARA: And some spirits are specialists.
MISS CAT: We get and sell dirt from graves of adventurous people and soldiers, telling them that their dirt will travel the world - such people will help strangers just for the interest of the thing. Some customers ask for specific kinds of dirt; I'll get it if I can.
DARA: Your ancestors may not want to be involved in some of your projects. They may stymie a love spell on "the wrong man", for instance.
MISS CAT: One of the best uses of ancestor dirt is for protection. Ancestors will do all they can to keep the family farm. Even a pet will protect you. The spirit of your cat may be much more fierce with your enemies than it ever had to be with mice, for "the dead do change after death" and every cat thinks it's a tiger.
MOTHER PYRITE (via chatroom): My favorite graveyard dirt comes from a couple whose photograph of them - smiling, middle-aged - was on their grave. They tease each other all the time about the husband pretending to be too fond of booze.
Re Eoghan's comment about funeral cannibalism: I've seen photos of a tribe in New Guinea doing that. It's how a disease called kuru was passed on.
DARA: I think kuru is related to mad cow disease.
MISS CAT: The two are virtually identical.
DR. KIONI: I've found it efficacious to sprinkle a little grave dirt on surface of candle, especially when I want to communicate w/ that spirit.
MS. ROBIN: Me too, Dr. But be aware that you can bring a bad spirit into your home, not necessarily from graveyard, so be careful - even if you're not a "black magic" worker.
MISS CAT: Yes, and if this happen, take cleansing baths. But this isn't very common with graveyard work. More common is making lots of interesting new friends.
DARA: My friend (a medium) says many of the dead are more alive than some of us.
with Eoghan Ballard, Ms. Robin, Dr. Christos Kioni Dara Anslowar, and Catherine Yronwode
MISS CAT: Graveyard work is very important and widespread, but people new to hoodoo may not know anything about it.We make a spiritual connection, ask for help, take graveyard dirt or leave something *in* the grave, offer payment, and also take dirt home with us. Such work is found in many traditions throughout world.
(CATHERINE YRONWODE and EOGHAN BALLARD note technical problems that prevent QUEEN MABULLA from being present.)
EOGHAN: Yes, essential, foundation of much Palero work. Lots of work with the dead, so you must go where they live. Essential to Central African practice. Features in both initiation and ongoing work.
DARA: I also do a lot of cemetery work and other work with spirits of dead. Often call in ancestors on behalf of clients especially where case is difficult; sometimes involves going to graveyard.
NAGASIVA: I do little graveyard work except collecting dirt for the shop and in association with pets; I have kept parts of pets who have died. Recently got dirt from (our late dog) Eris's grave.
MISS CAT: Do you call on Eris to help you?
NAGASIVA: No, just loving communion and greeting. I don't work with the spirits of the dead much.
DARA: Eoghan, how would you advise someone to deal with ancestor who was buried alongside someone they had major problems with?
EOGHAN: Go to grave and lay line of ash down the middle between beloved ancestor and the other.
DARA: What kind of ash?
EOGHAN: Whatever you normally use; in my line of work, usually cigars, which we use a lot. Could also use wood ashes, appropriate herbs.
MISS CAT: I use ash from my kitchen fire (wood cook stove), inspired by something I read about 35 years ago about Hindu practice. A woman had been forbidden to worship Siva, who is worshiped with ashes from cremation fires in a cemetery. She tells her mother, in a poem she wrote, "I will use the ashes from the cooking fire," in other words, "I WILL find a way." This is personal to me, not widespread.
EOGHAN: Hearth ashes a fine old tradition.
MS. ROBIN: I usually work with my ancestors, sometimes soldiers (commanding work); sometimes I tell clients to go to their ancestors; also to get some dirt from the grave *at time of burial.* Offer ancestors whatever they enjoyed in life -- favorite candy, Coke, whatever was their favorite.
MISS CAT: I follow traditional practice of leaving money for spirits I don't know personally, esp. adventurous, curious spirits. But when you work with a spirit for a while, you will begin to be aware of their preferences.
DARA: I tell clients to prepare a meal for ancestors at the completion of successful work.
EOGHAN: I have had dead contact me in dreams to express their wishes. I dreamed of entering a cemetery and *hearing* a surname. Of course after that I had to go find them. I found the surname on a stone which was almost illegible.
MISS CAT: Someone once called out to me from their grave as I was walking thru the cemetery where my mother would be buried; a friendly stranger, died circa World War I, who just wanted to help, a kind of help I had never sought before.
SINDY TODO: My husband's father is a Japanese-American veteran and buried in Japanese-American cemetery. I brought him favorite candy, gambling equipment, dimes. Wonderful experience. I had shopping-bag full of gifts and tokens. All the spirits of surrounding graves were very present. Environment at my house has been amazing since then.
MISS CAT: Queen Mabulla recommends leaving offering at crossroads nearest cemetery as well as at grave.
EOGHAN: I leave coins at entrance to cemetery as general notice to all spirits, and for permission to enter.
MISS CAT: One man told me he just *throws* coins into cemetery, for everybody.
DARA: I know someone who throws coins over shoulder as he leaves.
MISS CAT: Yes, I was taught that. I'll try anything once. Sometimes I have used all three methods at once -- coins upon entering, at the gave, and upon leaving.
I've found money lying around in cemeteries, so I know others do this.
I've also read surveys of graves that include remarks like "this gravestone was in good condition and had three nickels on it." So we know that many people do this.
NAGASIVA: I once offered Eris (our Portuguese Water Dog who died a few years back) a Mercury dime dressed with Black Arts oil.
MISS CAT: Which includes black dog hair, Eris being a black dog.
NAGASIVA: Yes, in fact this batch had been made with her hair.
DARA (?): Significance of where you place coins - head or feet?
MISS CAT: I've been taught various traditions - put money in their hand, at their head, at their feet - and it also depends on what kind of help you want: from their hands, from their head, from their heart, etc. For instance, some say to do enemy work and smite someone, use dirt from the hands. Once you've learned and absorbed all of the methods, you'll know in the moment what's right for you to do.
MS. ROBIN: I visited a cemetery in Louisiana. The graves are not buried underground, but in tombs on surface. A friend of mine in Algiers gave me dirt from inside the tomb - many families buried all in one tomb. After a year, the body decomposes, is swept up and put in a bag to the side to leave room for the next body.
Gifts of all kinds may be left, not just money.
MISS CAT: Use of Chinese spirit money or "hell banknotes" very interesting to me. "Hell just means "afterlife," probably closer to our idea of heaven. You can write petitions on it. It's very pretty.
MS. ROBIN: Yes, it comes in red, blue, green.
MISS CAT: Yes, and has picture of Bank of Hell on the back, where the spirits make their deposits. But I still prefer to use a dime. You can always wrap a dime in Hell money.
DARA: I copy down the info on the headstone.
MISS CAT: I also read whatever survivors say about them on the headstone. I read the inscription. I've noticed that people who are buried far from home sometimes feel lonesome when you go by.
DARA: Some cover their heads when they go to a graveyard, or put holy water or some protective oil on back of neck.
MISS CAT: That's a Catholic tradition. I've seen, in Europe, little old ladies selling lace mantillas outside cemeteries.
DARA: Yes, I was raised Catholic but learned it from someone who was not.
EOGHAN: Fairly widespread tradition, also in a number of African cultures.
MS. ROBIN: Eoghan - in some African tribes, have heard they would eat (part of) their dead before burial to gain that person's spirit.
EOGHAN: Lots of stories about cannibalism in Africa. "Cannibalism" was often synonym for "evil witchcraft." My studies confined to one area, so I don't know about the entire continent and its hundreds of cultures, but it is not well documented.
MISS CAT: Need to take cannibalism stories with a grain of salt. Unusual claims require unusual evidence.
EOGHAN: Yes, most of these stories were second-hand, plenty of room for fabrication. However, plenty of documentation for eating the dead in the Pacific, South America. But re: Africa, this is partly fabrication, partly confusion. Africans tended to accuse their enemies of cannibalism, meaning it metaphorically, which got taken literally by outside observers. When they did say "it really happened," they were usually talking about a magical process - which they don't distinguish from material processes. Materialists don't pick up on this, and get confused.
MISS CAT: Look up the term "blood libel" or "blood libel against Jews" - I come from a culture traditionally accused of this. Historically, Jews are oftn accused of cannibalism, of drinking human blood in rituals, even though Jewish dietary law involves draining all the blood *out* of a slaughtered animal, and no blood is consumed. So as a person accused of this, I say, don't believe everythign you hear.
MS. ROBIN: Has anyone dealt with the grave of a spirit who was so unhappy, they DID NOT want to be disturbed?
DARA: I have heard of such experiences. I move on when someone doesn't want me to talk to them.
MISS CAT: As I wrote in course, people from different cultures have differing attitudes to the dead. Those who come from cultures who fear the dead probably should not work with them. You may also run across graves of people from such cultures who don't want to be approachd; respect what THEY were taught.
DARA: Come to think of it, I have had such an experience. Site deep in mountains, no markings to indicate the grave. Actually felt like I was in danger. We left.
MISS CAT: But Robin, you spoke of *unhappy* spirits. I've been hit with a ton of anger, regret, confusion or fear - emotions not suitable to the work I wanted to do; I often leave offerings just out of pity or sympathy.
RON: Re Dara's comment about being threatened: has anyone dealt with hostile spirits? What would you do?
DARA: I just left. Got to the point where spirit pulled my hair. We were camping, I made group leave.
MISS CAT: If you've carried home something you don't wish to carry home, cross water. Stand on bridge over water and say Lord's Prayer. I do that when I carry home *anything* I don't want to take home, not just hostility but anger, sorrow.
DARA: Hostile spirit I encountered may *not* have been human. I've heard of other such encounters deep in the woods. Walk home *in* a stream if that happens to you.
MISS CAT: Spirits can cross water - but they can't follow you over it if you say not to. I generally cross over culvert on way home from cemetery.
BEATRICE: Whenever we went to visit my Irish-German great-grandmother, we'd stop and visit family graves on the way. She made us stop once to collect wintergreen from a friend's grave. She said, "to know what someone is really like, go back to their grave and see what's growing on it." A good person may have beautiful or medicinal plants on their grave.
MISS CAT: We often have "cemetery roses" - hardy, drought-tolerant roses - on graves. Some thrive and some don't. Others plant resurrection lilies (known as "naked ladies" out here) on graves. Those graves hold my favorite spirits, because you can tell they were loved. The naked ladies come back year after year, sometimes for a century.
DARA: In cemetery where my grandfather is buried, there's a tree I haven't identified yet. It's so black and dark - leaves and all - that it looks like it's absorbing all light.
BEATRICE: A spirit tree? If you have a branch of your family suffering from multi-generation curse - can you start working with those ancestors once curse is broken?
MISS CAT: You'll have to feel your way through that. The dead do change, as Queen Mabulla always says, so they may have *been cursed* but not *be cursing.* I know your background - some strange people, not all nice [BEATRICE laughing], but it's worthwhile to see if they've mellowed. I have some ancestors like that.
EOGHAN: People's understanding of how the universe works changes after death. St. Oram, disciple of St. Columcille (exiled from Ireland for political reasons; founded Iona monastery). While building chapel, work of each day was undone each night. Were told that if someone were buried alive under foundation, this would stop. St. Oram volunteered. Chapel work went on without interruption.
Weeks later, Columcille dug St. Oram out, found head. Oram's head said, "Other world not as you imagined, different from our teachings about it." So Columcille buried the head again.
MISS CAT: Work with fresh dead if you want power; as time passes, the dead are said to lose interest in the world of the living - though I know of some exceptions, even hundreds of years dead. However, with your own ancestors you can go back a lot farther. Your own ancestors are best to work with; next, your friends; after that, anyone who is interested. In some cases, especially for protection of your body, only your ancestors can help.
DARA: Occasionally you will find the spirit of someone who did conjure work in life. A VERY valuable resource if they agree to help you.
MISS CAT: Some of our students have experienced this with their own ancestors.
MS. ROBIN: People who died violently are very strong for "black magic".
DARA: Or *very small* amounts of such graveyard dirt for all types of magic.
MISS CAT: Those who have *committed* violence also strong for negative magic.
Some people like to keep different kinds of dirt: A justice-minded murder victim, for instance, is valuable for all kinds of justice work; but your sweet old grandma may only be interested in protecting *you.*
DARA: And some spirits are specialists.
MISS CAT: We get and sell dirt from graves of adventurous people and soldiers, telling them that their dirt will travel the world - such people will help strangers just for the interest of the thing. Some customers ask for specific kinds of dirt; I'll get it if I can.
DARA: Your ancestors may not want to be involved in some of your projects. They may stymie a love spell on "the wrong man", for instance.
MISS CAT: One of the best uses of ancestor dirt is for protection. Ancestors will do all they can to keep the family farm. Even a pet will protect you. The spirit of your cat may be much more fierce with your enemies than it ever had to be with mice, for "the dead do change after death" and every cat thinks it's a tiger.
MOTHER PYRITE (via chatroom): My favorite graveyard dirt comes from a couple whose photograph of them - smiling, middle-aged - was on their grave. They tease each other all the time about the husband pretending to be too fond of booze.
Re Eoghan's comment about funeral cannibalism: I've seen photos of a tribe in New Guinea doing that. It's how a disease called kuru was passed on.
DARA: I think kuru is related to mad cow disease.
MISS CAT: The two are virtually identical.
DR. KIONI: I've found it efficacious to sprinkle a little grave dirt on surface of candle, especially when I want to communicate w/ that spirit.
MS. ROBIN: Me too, Dr. But be aware that you can bring a bad spirit into your home, not necessarily from graveyard, so be careful - even if you're not a "black magic" worker.
MISS CAT: Yes, and if this happen, take cleansing baths. But this isn't very common with graveyard work. More common is making lots of interesting new friends.
DARA: My friend (a medium) says many of the dead are more alive than some of us.
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Re: LMHR Hour Chat Log May 24, 2006 Visting the Graveyard - Chat Log
Sincere thanks go out once more to Miss Michaele for having faithfully taken notes during this radio podcast. The audio files are long gone, but her chat log is with us. THANK YOU, Miss Michaele!
catherine yronwode
teacher - author - LMCCo owner - HP and AIRR member - MISC pastor - forum admin
teacher - author - LMCCo owner - HP and AIRR member - MISC pastor - forum admin
