Lucky Mojo Hoodoo Rootwork Hour #08-04: Protection, Animal Torture, Lethal Spells (Miss Cat, Dr. Kioni)

[MissMichaele]

LUCKY MOJO HOODOO ROOTWORK RADIO HOUR

March 19, 2008

LIVE SESSION: PROTECTION WORK AND LETHAL SPELLS

with client Macaulay

[MUSIC INTRO: Jug Band Waltz by Will Shade and the Memphis Jug Band]

[DR. KIONI introduces MISS CAT, client, and nature of case]

DR. KIONI: Macaulay is from Alaska, and her mother is also with us tonight. Macaulay, please introduce your mother and tell us a little bit about your story.

MACAULAY: I'm here with my mother, Althea. We were born into a family where there was a lot of "evil sorcery," as we put it, and we have been on the run for several years. My father, mother, siblings, and I have been moving around the country to get away from my family. About 10 or 12 years ago, my mother and I started researching magic, so that we could find the best way to fight fire with fire.

MISS CAT: Can I ask a question before we go any further? Which part of the family has sorcery -- your mother's side or your father's side?

MACAULAY: My mother's side.

MISS CAT: Now, is this your mother's mother, or your mother's father?

MACAULAY: My mother's father.

[Dr. Kioni commences shuffling cards]

MISS CAT: So your maternal grandfather is the cause of the bad stuff, the evil, the... destructive sorcerous energy?

MACAULAY: Right.

MISS CAT: Did he do anything to cause your mother spiritual injury?

MACAULAY: Oh, yes! We both witnessed a lot of human sacrifice, cannibalism, bizarre sex acts -- I think that's pretty spiritually damaging!

MISS CAT: Yeah. Now, I want to get some more on this -- cannibalism? Were the police ever called?

MACAULAY: That's why we were running.

MISS CAT: You're running because the police were called?

MACAULAY: We called the police and it did not go in our favor; we had a lot of problems after that.

MISS CAT: Did they not believe you?

MACAULAY: Well -- I don't think they did. It was a strange story, and the places we pointed them to, to find evidence, within a week after we talked to the police, that place was burned all the way down, all the acreage and everything.

MISS CAT: So there was no evidence, then.

MACAULAY: No evidence, no. And after that, I was getting a lot of people following me; strange people coming up to me on the street, calling me by name and announcing that they were going to take over my family.

MISS CAT: Let me ask a few more questions, because we know that sociopaths do exist. There are convicted killers who, in fact, do engage in cannibalism and bizarre sex acts and other things. This was your grandfather, and you and your mother witnessed this. About how long ago? What decade?

MACAULAY: We left in 1990.

MISS CAT: So, between what decade and 1990?

MACAULAY: Well, since my birth -- and my mother's childhood, too. Can Althea talk for just a minute?

MISS CAT: Sure.

ALTHEA [voice sounds quite similar to Macaulay's]: I just wanted to say that the missing puzzle piece is that this is a multigenerational cult activity. It goes back to my great-grandfather, and his father, and on back -- I don't even know how long ago. It was passed down to the oldest child of each high priest, and I am the oldest of my father's children. I was in line for that and turned my back on it, causing a great deal of difficulty. And Macaulay is my oldest child. Right now, I think she's a target because she's a threat to that -- I think we could call it a dynasty. And that's why the cannibalism comes in, in part: when the high priest (my father) died, I'm sure there was a ceremony in which they partook of part of the remains. I have a lot of evidence for that, but we don't have time to discuss it here.

MISS CAT: These are very extraordinary claims. I'm going to be taking a neutral position. I know that such things happen; I also know that for claims this extraordinary, one would expect to see evidence.

For instance, I do have a friend who comes from a family of -- I guess you could call them ritual sex abusers -- although not ritual in the sense of a religious ritual, or Satanic ritual abuse, but in the family it was the custom for the elder men to force the young people to have sex with each other while they watched, irrespective of whether they were siblings or cousins. This was done for some sort of perverted amusement; this was a family that did this for at least three generations that are known. The results were disastrous for the family. So I know that such things happen. I also know that cannibalism occurs; we see it in the newspapers all the time.

But what I'm asking here is: when you say that you escaped, and now strange people are coming up to you, you're talking about a cult that extends, now, outside the family, and has high priests. And I have to ask: is there a name for this organization? Do you know where they originated? What is the background of this? Because this is a very extraordinary claim.

MACAULAY: Well, we don't know the name of it.

MISS CAT: So there's no known name for the group, there's --

MACAULAY: There is a name, but I don't know it.

MISS CAT: Okay. But you do know that Macaulay's grandfather, great-grandfather, great-great-grandfather -- all partook of this type of ritual?

ALTHEA: Yes.

MISS CAT: Okay. When they were doing this, did they live in the country, in the city? Did they have jobs? What was their place in society?

ALTHEA: They moved a lot. Sometimes [they lived] in the city, sometimes way out in the country.

DR. KIONI: I've talked with both of these ladies about this case, and they are leaving out some things. I would encourage both the ladies not to leave out details; that will help us both to diagnose the case better. There is an uncle of Macaulay's who is now out of prison. When they say that they are on the run, it's because of this uncle, who was sent to prison because of these heinous acts. He got a life sentence, if I understand correctly, which was somehow commuted. Ergo, a renewed threat.

MISS CAT: Have you filed a restraining order against him, or anything like that?

MACAULAY: He's nowhere near us, and not obviously doing anything to us, so there's no need for a restraining order.

MISS CAT: So he's not a present threat right now.

[Card shuffling resumes]

ALTHEA: He's a very real and dangerous threat right now.

DR. KIONI: Actually, the divination shows that he is gunning for Macaulay. There is energy that is being thrown toward her. She was one of the people that testified against him. He is out for revenge and retribution. There is a magical threat, although he is not around physically.

MACAULAY: All of our lives, we have had a lot of bizarre spiritual things happening around us: things flying across the room, tables turning over when no one was near them -- bizarre things like that. And recently, in the last week or two, I've been experiencing more circumstances like that.

MISS CAT: I'd like to hear what Dr. Kioni says the cards are doing. Dr. Kioni, as I remember it, you do a four card spread: Past, Present, Future, and Outcome. Let us know what question you asked, or were you asking about the situation in general? And what cards you get?

Dr. Kioni [laughing over being frightened by a dark figure appearing near his nganga, which turned out to be his wife Marilyn]: Please pass the Charmin...

[laughter]

Past: Alchemy [a card peculiar to the Tarot deck Dr. Kioni uses -- MCM], definitely indicates witchcraft or sorcery that has been used multiple times; so I believe this story is correct.

Present: Hierophant. There is a feeling that this person is out gunning for the family. This card represents traditional unions, family structure, etc. His intention is to get back at key family members that have done him wrong, as he sees it.

Future: Three of Swords.

Outcome: Five of Wands.

This is not a pretty picture. He wants to hang them out to dry, as shown by the fifth card I laid down -- the Hanged Man.

MISS CAT: So that is the further outcome, further out [in time]?

DR. KIONI: Yes.

MISS CAT: Is this spread particularly about this one uncle, or is it about the whole situation?

DR. KIONI: In readings I've done before for this family, I've had indications that it is about this one particular uncle, that he is the one whose energy is coming through. It is about getting back at key family members, as indicated by the Hierophant card. The Saturn and Libra energies associated with the Three of Swords confirm that his intent is to inflict damage; funerals, injury, death. The Five of Wands simply confirms this. He is acting, not just for immediate effect, but for long-term effect; Wands represent long-term possibilities. The Hanged Man is yet further confirmation.

MISS CAT: The Hanged Man is in a state of suspension, dishonored, discredited, certainly made to suffer. It does also have an interior, spiritual meaning -- martyrdom or transformation in a certain sense -- but in this particular case, coming after those other cards, it does seem to show an intent to hang them out to dry.

DR. KIONI: Given the history of this family, the Three of Swords and Five of Wands show the possibility that they might become the sacrifice; that is how these individuals have gotten their power in the past. Now, this man was sent to jail for something totally unrelated to these spiritual practices. Macaulay and Althea, please elaborate.

ALTHEA: Well, he was sexually abusing his daughter. I suspected it; when she came to me, I reported it to the sheriff. The sheriff's department uncovered more trauma than she had told me about -- abusing animals and other children -- and that is why he was arrested and charged in the state of Idaho with a crime that is punishable by 99 years in prison.

MACAULAY: And he got out in 14 years.

ALTHEA: Actually, 15.

MISS CAT: Do you know where he is now?

ALTHEA: Yes.

MISS CAT: And are you far away from him?

ALTHEA: Far.

MISS CAT: Certainly, if he is planning magical attacks against you, it doesn't matter how far away he is. The thing to do, of course, is to put some very strong protection into place. It may need to be renewed on a regular basis, if you feel the threat is ongoing or continuous. If I were in a similar position and had such an antagonist, in addition to trying to remove him from the earth by doing a justice/killing spell on him, I would also continually do protection spells for myself, to keep the interference down to a dull roar, as it were.

If he is also planning to hurt you physically, you also want some kind of warning sign or spell. I'm going to deal with this in three parts:

1) A warning system, so that you can tell if he is either near physically or is making a spiritual attack on you;

2) The type of protection you should have;

3) I'm going to leave this part to Dr. Kioni: How to take him out, which is a separate issue.

Dr. Kioni, does this sound like a reasonable approach?

DR. KIONI: I think it is. Please proceed.

MISS CAT: Let's start with warning spells -- an overlooked category of spell. The classic one is to wear a silver dime around your ankle. You could wear a piece of silver jewelry, but a silver dime, real silver, is the most commonly used. Specifically, a Mercury dime or Winged Liberty dime, and it is to ensure your continued liberty. You need to get a real silver dime, and you can have a hole drilled in it and wear it around your ankle. You're going to use it as a watch-out.

There are two things that can happen:

If it turns black, even if it's a kind of grayish black, that's a sign that you are under spiritual attack; it's like a Distant Early Warning system.

The other thing that might happen is that the anklet that you tie it to can break. Some people use leather, or a chain, or even a piece of cotton string. But whatever you use, the time that it breaks is important. It's what they call, "It takes the hit for you." If the cord, or whatever you attach it with, breaks, try to collect the dime, cleanse it, and put it on again. But be immediately aware that you are under immediate threat.

So, to summarize: when you are attacked, either the dime will turn black or the cord will break. If the cord breaks, it means that you were attacked and the dime took the hit, that is, the attack failed.

However, this means a time of heightened attack; nobody attacks just once, they usually do it in a run of three or seven days. They're going to start steady working.

There are other magical warning systems, but I feel you should use this one.

You can also use baths to cleanse yourself of any negativity. The one I recommend most highly is a mixture of Thirteen Herb Bath (made entirely of herbs), and Uncrossing Bath, which is a bath crystal (also available as an oil). Some people like to mix the two; some people like to use only the herbs; some people like to use only the bath crystals. I tend to like to mix them; it goes a little farther.

When you feel the pressure or threat, take an Uncrossing Bath; you may find that it will shield and guard you. However, an Uncrossing Bath is not the strongest protection against continued onslaught; it is to take off negativity when it has already happened. When the dime that you are wearing turns black or when the string supporting it breaks, that is the time to do an Uncrossing Bath.

When you use the Thirteen Herb Bath, you might want to take 13 baths in a row; there are 13 herbs, one for each day that you do it. That will carry you through about half of the lunar cycle.

You can also use divination systems for warning. Dr. Kioni uses cards; you can also use pendulums. Even if you simply feel there may be a threat, you can use a pendulum, or some other simple, quick divination method, asking "What is the spiritual weather like?"" or ask a yes-or-no question: "Am I under attack?" "Are my protections working at this time?"

Personally, I like the silver dime, because it's very, very powerful. It not only warns you, but it also takes the hit.

The next step is protection. There are many, many, many forms of protection spells. Here are a few that might work well for you:

Depending on where you live, one of the most common methods is to take Devil's shoestrings, nine of them, and drive them into the earth of the path leading up to your house -- in fact, on each path leading up your house: front path, back path, side path (if you have one). If these paths are covered with concrete, wait till the soil is damp (or dampen it) and drive the Devil's shoestrings into it at a slight angle, trying to get under the concrete a little ways, so that people who walk that path would actually have to step over them. You can also put them around the property. But you always place them in groups of nine.

Another thing you can do for protection is to nail down the house. Start with the room you sleep in and take four small nails, such as coffin nails, and simply drive in one at each corner, near the wall. If the room is carpeted, you can either lift the carpet or simply drive the nails right through the carpet and fluff the carpet over them; nobody will notice them. As you drive the nails, anoint them with Fiery Wall of Protection oil. You can drive a fifth nail in the center of the room, or use a little salt. If the room is carpeted, work the salt into the carpet; if you vacuum the room, you'll have to lay the salt again. Instead of the nails, you can use squares of camphor; some people lay a dime on top of each square of camphor. There are a number of ways to seal the room.

Then you want to seal the house. You can take four cans of lye, the kind you clean out drains with, and bury one, unopened, at each outside corner of the house or apartment building. Then you can nail down the entire property with four railroad spikes; drive them down to ground level and arrange the grass over them so they can't be seen. You definitely want to put some other material on top of those spikes: Fiery Wall of Protection Oil, for instance.

Say Psalm 91 over each of the spikes as you place and prepare it. Since this is a spiritual threat, you might also want to say Psalm 121. But definitely Psalm 91, because this is a real and present danger from a person who has been known to commit actual, physical crimes.

When you have done all this, you have three layers of protection: your bedroom, your house, and the property it sits on.

You can reinforce that outermost ring of protection by placing things on top of the spikes. I like Indian head pennies, with the head up. The Indian head pennies are watchers and lookouts. They will warn you spiritually -- not the way the dime does, because they are at the edge of your property and not around your ankle. You can call them "Black Hawk," and there is a song for Black Hawk: "He's a watcher on the wall." But you can just say, "Black Hawk, be my watcher on the wall. Black Hawk, if evil comes, let me know in a dream, or let me know by a sign." Blackhawk is a Native American Spirit; you can dress those pennies with Indian Spirit Guide Oil, so as to receive a dream of warning. Or, what may happen is that a Native American person will deliver a message of warning to you. You might even see a Native American character in a drama or movie or even a song, doing or saying something that will come as a warning. Mind you, you don't have to expect warnings like this all the time. But once you set up these Indian head pennies as scouts, the warning will come from an Indian spirit guide.

The railroad spikes are more African, and relate more to African deities, so you can also expect help from African spirits. Those are very powerful ways to protect your property.

So, first of all, we have a warning system; we have a series of protections, increasing in strength as we go out toward the edge of your property. You know now that you are both protected and warned. A warning is a kind of protection, also.

Those are my recommendations, and I'm very serious about you doing them. I think they will bring you more peace of mind. Since the man is not physically near at this time, unless you receive warning that he is coming closer to you physically, your main concern is to guard against any kind of magical work.

Now, Dr. Kioni, let's consider how to get rid of this person permanently. But first, Doctor, do you have any additions to what I was saying?

DR. KIONI: No, I don't. You're doing good.

MISS CAT: So let's talk about this uncle and how to get him out of the picture permanently.

DR. KIONI: There are quite a few different entities that one can work with when you're taking someone out. Usually, spirits are involved in the dying process. There are good spirits that are present, and not-so-good spirits, that are present during a person's transition. Of course, we normally say that if a person has done well in life, treated people right, and tried to live by the Golden Rule, well, the spirits of light and love and so forth are going to take that person to a better place. Of course, the opposite is true if the person has not been the kind of individual that has enhanced society and people's lives. So what we want to do is to work with the spirit of Death, because this person is used to working with Death, so we might as well fight fire with fire.

I would start by going to the graveyard. Take a silver coin with you, such as a fifty-cent piece, and go to the farthest part of the graveyard, in the back, where there really aren't any bodies buried, if you can find a corner. You're going to dig a hole, and you're going to call on the spirit of the graveyard (and of course, in this [Palo] tradition, the spirit of the graveyard is Senteli Ndoki, because she rules that. In Voodoo, it would be Baron Samedi; but you can simply call on "the spirit that rules this place").

Offer that spirit, first of all, an eggplant and nine pennies as payment for helping you. Then deposit that fifty cents into the hole, because the hole that you are digging is his grave.

There are two variations to this spell, and I'm going to give you the one that's a little more complicated, because it's also a lot more effective.

Take the dirt you have dug out of that hole and tie it up in a black cloth and take it home with you. Find a live centipede -- this is traditionally called for, but a worm or caterpillar will do.

You also need three sewing needles and a black candle. Dress that candle with Miss Cat's Revenge Oil and Damnation Oil, if you please. You will then dress that candle with Goofer Dust and African guinea peppers. Of course, I missed a point that you are familiar with: carve the man's name upside down on the candle, trim off the wick, and start a new wick on the bottom [Dr. Kioni is referring to the technique described in HRCC, page 131, "Fixing a Reversible Jumbo Candle" -- MCM].

Now, while that candle's burning, prepare a name paper on this man [as described in HRCC page 259, "Root Doctor Paper Techniques" -- MCM], being careful not to tear across the seams, where the bag is machine-cut and glued together. Tear that name out [apparently Dr. Kioni means her to write out the name paper while the paper is still part of the bag -- MCM], and of course, as you make the name paper, you are cursing him.

Work up the rage, work up all of those negative feelings, and really, really lay it on him: "You will die; you will leave this earth; you will die as you have caused others to die; you will suffer as you have caused others to suffer. No one will help you; no one will give you water; no one will wipe your brow; no one will wipe your ass; no one will help you. This spell cannot be broken!" Really tie it on.

After you've completed the name paper, you want to add it to the graveyard dirt in that black cloth, and tie it off with some black thread. You can use red -- that's okay.

Now, you still have the worm. I use tweezers to handle the worm gently. Take the first needle and hold it in the fire of the candle, and call the person's name -- and then stick the hot needle through the worm, right in its midsection. Then repeat with the other needles, one in the head and one in the tail of the worm.

Take all of that outside to a tree somewhere in nature. I just happen to have 10 beautiful, stately palm trees in my backyard, and this work traditionally calls for working with a palm tree. But you can work with any tree, really. Take some rum with you, and pour it around the roots of the tree. As you are doing it, tell the tree why you're there; tell the truth about what you want to do, which is to take this person out. Call the person's name. Make a small hole and bury the mojo you have made. Then take your candle, lighted, and stick it in the ground on top of that. Finally, take the worm -- which is still alive -- and pin it to the tree; push the pins [with which it is already transfixed] into the bark of a tree and pin it silently there.

Then you will need a butcher knife -- I'm combining two rituals here. Take the knife and stab the tree violently on the north, south, east, and west sides, in a cross pattern. And each time you stab the tree, you call this person's name, saying, "As you have thought to do to me, so I do to you; so shall your life be taken from you, and so shall you die. So shall you die, even as this worm dies; so shall you squirm, even as this worm squirms; so shall you waste away, even as this worm wastes away." And you ask the tree to take him out. Let the candle burn. Walk away. The work is done.

And it does work. We have combined two different spells here; one calls for not using the worm at all -- that's the one where you stab the tree.

Now you can go even further, if you want this to work really, really fast. Use a palm tree, and pin a live black rooster to the tree -- as payment to the spirits that inhabit the tree. The only difference is that you will cut the rooster's chest open, and stuff the chest cavity with stuff you would have put in the ground [in the other version of the spell]. The rooster has to still be alive when you pin it to the tree. And that person will die. Trust me.

MISS CAT: That's a pretty intense one to do. Now, I don't know... These are two spells in which you use an animal as a surrogate for the person you want to have die. And they are not the kind of spells that the fainthearted or the lady-hearted will do.

ALTHEA: Oh, no. I'm not lady-hearted.

[Laughter]

DR. KIONI: Well, actually, Macaulay is going to be here [at Dr. K's house] next month, and we'll be doing that spell, or a variation on it, when she is here.

There is a wide variety of killing spells. Some of them use the heart [of an animal]. Another thing you could do, though it would expose you as to where he is, would be to capture his voice, even in a recording, and place it in a jar filled with certain items -- goofer dust, etc. -- and take it to the graveyard --

Wow, the spirits are really in here tonight! [Laugh] No, I didn't see anybody this time, just what I normally see; they're just really active in here tonight. I just saw some ancestors walking by just now.

... And you can put that [jar] down in the grave, and that will take care of the person. I have seen that spell done with such effectiveness that the person it was worked on actually killed themselves within 48 hours.

People like that I don't have tolerance for. I just want to move them on out of the way; I don't want to make them my friends, I don't want to do a honey jar, I don't want to do nothin'. I want them out of the way -- you put mad dogs down.

MACAULAY: He needs to start over.

DR. KIONI: Tell me. What do you mean?

MACAULAY: He needs to go on and start over in his next life.

MISS CAT: Macaulay believes in reincarnation.

DR. KIONI: Mm-hmm. Well, Jesus said you must be born again.

[Laughter]

DR. KIONI: I mean, how simple is that? Everybody sitting around, "Jesus didn't teach --" Well, yes he did!

[Laughter]

MISS CAT: We won't go there. I've got a question about the spell with the rooster: is that separate from stabbing the tree, or is that one sufficient in itself?

DR. KIONI: I was combining two different spells, as I said.

MISS CAT: So [if you use the rooster], you wouldn't stab the tree.

DR. KIONI: You can, but no [stabbing the tree is not an essential part of the rooster spell]. This is a spell all by itself, where you simply take the rooster and open the breast and sprinkle the wound with rum, and you put in pepper, garlic, graveyard dirt, and any other personal items of the individual. You wrap that chicken in black cloth, and while you are cursing him, you invoke the spirit of the tree. If we're talking about a palm tree, you invoke the spirit of the tree to kill this person in a very slow and painful way. You pin the chicken to the tree.

Another variation is to bury the chicken in the ground with its head above ground at the [bottom] end of the trunk. Then you take a broom and beat the tree with a broom instead of stabbing the tree. This angers the spirit of the tree, causing it to get up and go take out its frustrations on the person you have targeted.

MISS CAT: Now I'm curious. If such work is done, may we have a reading on how successful the outcome of these three kinds of work will be? For instance, if they do the warning system, the protection system, and then the killing spell, performing them according to the variations that we have outlined here, what would be the possible outcome?

Dr. Kioni [shuffling]: I'm going to prepare the cards while you talk with Macaulay and Althea.

MISS CAT: I mention this because I know this person is violent, and I want to be sure you are physically safe. You both seem confident about this.

ALTHEA: Well, we've both been living with this kind of danger for so long. We aren't totally safe, no -- we're not.

MISS CAT: When did he get out of prison?

ALTHEA: He got out of prison in 1994, and I have some other brothers who are of like mind. I know that they have been here in town and that they know where we live.

MISS CAT: I want you to be sure that any legal means that you can take will be taken. For instance, if they have any kind of [criminal] record, that this is known to others; if they are sex offenders, that they are listed in the sex offenders' registry for your state and area.

Spend a day or two researching what can be done legally.

One of the things I teach about doing protective work is that, while you can call on all kinds of spirits, you can also call on living beings for protection [while preparing your magical work]. If you call on the police department, you can also do it in such a way as to include "all off-duty and retired policemen; all off-duty and retired firemen; all persons in our area who have had military experience -- I want them to be my eyes and ears, to be hypervigilant, and if they see a single thing out of order, I want them to trip this person up." You can call on people like that who may not even know you. By one of those beneficent coincidences, they might see the person driving erratically, and he gets hauled off for drunk driving. You see what I mean?

ALTHEA: Uh huh, very clever!

MISS CAT: Another way to do it -- and I always say, "All current police officers, all off-duty police officers, all retired police officers; all current soldiers, all off-duty soldiers, all retired military, all guardsmen, all who are now or have ever been firefighters -- all those who have those senses trained, let them be my watchmen." You can also do the Fiery Wall of Protection spell which you can find at the Lucky Mojo website. I want to see you protected before you go into a killing spell.

ALTHEA: I have already ordered that kit from you.

MISS CAT: Oh, good!

ALTHEA: When it gets here, we'll be using it right away.

DR. KIONI: I instructed her to do that.

MISS CAT: The kit has two ways to dispose of the perpetrator candle: one is by throwing it into a river, and the other is to carry it to graveyard. I would recommend the graveyard in this case. It's more final.

MACAULAY: I have a question about that:: Where we live, there is still snow on the graveyard. What do you recommend we do about that?

MISS CAT: When do you expect the snow to thaw?

MACAULAY: It'll be at least a month to six weeks.

MISS CAT: Hoodoo developed in tropical Africa, and then in the subtropical Southeast, so I don't have a good solid answer for that; but I can tell you what some people do. You can get one of those little butane flame torch things to melt the snow on the ground, and then dig the hole. You can also wait. I've known people to take the objects they need to bury and put them outside the house, in a woodshed (in the old days, people would have an outhouse). You don't want to keep that material in your house.

MACAULAY: That's actually what we have to do here with our dead. We have a storage place, and we wait until the spring to bury them.

MISS CAT: Yes. And if you could actually get those things into a place where the dead are stored, prior to getting it to graveyard, that would be very good. If you can't, just make your own little storage place for it.

DR. KIONI: Here are the cards.

Past: 4 of Pentacles, reversed. I like that, because we're taking off the gloves.

Present: 8 of Wands, reversed. I like that, because we are stopping any forward movement this individual is making toward them.

Future: 6 of Wands -- very, very encouraging. There is Jupiter and Leo energy associated with this card. I really like that, because it tells me that you win.

Outcome: Sun, reversed -- not necessarily a bad thing; it tells me the storm clouds are clearing, and we know that behind all storm clouds is sunshine.

I did lay out another four cards prior to this spread. The caveat here is that this kind of work does create some sadness in the extended family. And further alienation for you all, but I don't know why; you would know better than I would. I see disapproval from a patriarch, more ancestral than that of a living person.

ALTHEA: That makes sense.

DR. KIONI: Past: King of Wands.

Present: Emperor.

Future: 2 of Cups, reversed.

Outcome: Knight of Cups, reversed.

So even though you solve one problem, you may create another problem with the ancestors who took part in these things and have been watching over these individuals, and are aware of you, too. That opens up another area that needs protection.

MISS CAT: I can see what you're saying there's going to be some fallout from this.

MACAULAY: That's been a concern for us: taking off the gloves before we have all our bases covered.

MISS CAT: I think if you do all the steps we have described in the order given, you will have all your bases covered. Also, if you go to Dr. Kioni's to do some of this work, that will be a very good thing, because some of these things are very strenuous spiritually. He's accustomed to this kind of work and can help you.

Do you have any further questions?

ALTHEA: No, but we would really like to thank you.

MISS CAT: You're certainly very welcome. I hope you can put this to rest once and for all, take your lives back, and be free of this fear and oppression.

ALTHEA: That sounds like a blessing right there.

DR. KIONI: I want to thank you for appearing on the show, for having the courage to open up your lives to us and to our listeners. And I want to encourage everyone listening to take a moment to pray for this family, even to light a candle for them.

[Announcements -- brief interruption as Sophie the Wonder Water Dog barks at something invisible, which Miss Cat describes as a distant warning]

MISS CAT: Sometimes, when we talk about these things, we rouse up these little feelers of energy. You can tell you're on the right track when that happens.

[MISS CAT finishes announcements. Outro]

[CKioni]

Human sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality and more surround this
interesting case. The clients say they have been on the run for over
10 years trying to escape their past. Listen as cat and Dr. Kioni
discuss protection magic. http://hoodoorootwork.blogspot.com/

Enjoy!

[LynneTyson]

In a message dated 3/21/2008 9:34:57 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
drkioni@drkioni.com writes:

Human sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality

-----

"You put mad dogs down!" WOW, what powerful stuff !

lynne tyson #1131

[KM]

----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Christos Kioni
To: hrcourse@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: [hrc] LMHRH Show 032008 Online Now


Human sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality and more surround this
interesting case. The clients say they have been on the run for over
10 years trying to escape their past. Listen as cat and Dr. Kioni
discuss protection magic. http://hoodoorootwork.blogspot.com/

Enjoy!


oh yeah!!!!!!!

will there be a show next wed.?

my two best friends here and i are planning a weekly lucky mojo hoodoo root work hour get together

with good food, company, drinks

and of course our cards

i pulled a reversed knight of wands and i tried out my chi chi sticks and got a 78

the final stick

it mentioned looking always looking over the shoulder

it is time for those women to have some freedom

kristi marcus

#1216




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[LynneTyson]

In a message dated 3/21/2008 4:08:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
lynnetyson@aol.com writes:

"You put mad dogs down!" WOW, what powerful stuff !

lynne tyson #1131



I was so aired up over the show that I forgot to add my name and student
number, thank you for adding it for me. I will be more diligent in the future.
lynne tyson #1131

(You're welcome! --cat)

[KM]

child and animal abusers annoy me and i wish them all to be banished

i listened to the show three times and nothing i heard has convinced me that these women are in any danger

maybe it is the hour venue that leaves a lot out

they seemed to be very nice people and for real scared to pieces

i am concerned that the rooster would be a waste

i am not in opposition to sacrifice i just did not hear enough during the hour

no doubt the case is in the most capable of hands

kristi marcus

#1216

[catherineyronwode]

I personally had some concerns about the stability of these clients, and asked repeatedly about the nature of the person who was endangering them, his location, etc. As far as i understood, the man was arrested, convicted, sentenced, served his time, was released on parole after 15 years, no longer lives near them, and is not a present physical threat to them. When they told me that they would not seek a restraining order against him because he lives far away, i decided that their main concern was spiritual, not physical, thus i offered warning and protection spells. Dr. Kioni offered two killing spells, and he will be working with them in that regard.

Regarding Kioni's suggestion of torturing a rooster to death:

We each, as workers, approach our God as we see fit, and perform our work according to the traditions we have been taught. Dr. Kioni works in a combined Palo-hoodoo method. In Palo animal torture is condoned, and Dr. K. is honest and above-board in stating his interest in and practice of this form of work, especially torturing chickens.

I, on the other hand, personally do not consider it righteously just for me to make innocent animals suffer torture in order to gain any kind of advantage for a human client of mine. I also refuse to belong to any social, cultural, spiritual, or magical group that practices or condones animal abuse under the name of magic or spiritual offerings. I am lady-hearted, i clearly say so, and i firmly stick by my methods of working. I also hope that more people will join me in considering harm reduction in the use of animal curios and animals as food.

This week's show was a clear case of culturally varied and morally conflicting approaches being aired, and that is certainly a healthy way to teach -- because it allows students to learn the variations possible within these different traditions and to follow the paths into which they themselves are spirit-led.

On the subject of torture versus sacrifice i have a bit more to say.

Sacrifice:

I am not in opposition to humane animal slaughter, which i have practiced.

I am not in opposition to humane animal sacrifice, although i myself have never practiced it and will never practice it, due to my own ethical, moral, and philosophical beliefs.

If anyone cares to know why i do not practice animal sacrifice, i shall explain: Regarding animal sacrifice, my beliefs, which i have developed myself, without reference to any "moral guideline" other than personal experience, have led me to understand that sacrifice means willingly giving up something dear by offering it to God.

In times, places, and cultures where animals are raised by hand and then sacrified, the sacrifice makes sense to me -- it represents much work at animal husbandry, and it is a life with which the sacrificer is intimately connected. I understand this. I respect it, too.

However, in modern culture at this time, when a live chicken can be purchased for less than the cost of a packet of cigarettes or a packet of resin incense, to kill the chicken seems to me to be no more a *sacrifice* than to throw tobacco or resin incense on the fire. It seems somehow an all-too-convenient substitute for actual sacrifice as i understand it.

As to why i do not practice animal sacrifice of the older type, that is, of animals that i have hand-raised, and whose loss would be a true sacrifice to me -- well, this comes from another belief of mine. I also believe that each animal's life represents ITS OWN spirit and soul, i believe that it cannot be made to represent my own sacrifice of anything of value to me. I believe it can only sacrifice *itself* -- as a border collie i know did in an attempt to save a cat from a burning building.

Additionally, there is an institutionalized hierarchicalization of sacrificial animals that i find morally suspect. In the Tanakh, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son, and Jephthah, a judge in Israel, actually did sacrifice his only daughter because of a vow he had made. Would those who conveniently purchase cheap chickens to sacrifice, never having raised the chickens themselves -- just buying them on Saturday morning to kill on Saturday night -- be willing to sacrifice their daughter's pet kitten? or their daughter? If not, why not?

Torture;

Let us go on to animal torture.

I am outspokenly in firm opposition to animal torture, for any purpose, including thrill-seeking, psychopathological perversion, or because someone believes that an animal, with its own spirit ad soul, can be made to suffer pain so that an unrelated human being will suffer pain. I believe that deliberate and premeditated animal torture should be a felony crime. In many places it already is.

I am going to go one step further now, and direct you to some web pages about an event that happened here locally, in Santa Rosa, California. It started when a man was humanely live-trapping feral cats in order to take them to a spay/neuter program run by Forgotten Felines of Sonoma County. Forgotten Felines sees that feral cats are wormed, given rabies shots, spayed or neutered, released, and maintained for the rest of their lives at feral cat colony feeding station, but cannot produce any more offspring.

This man, who had only the best intentions, made the mistake of leaving three cages of cats and kittens out on his front porch over night in preparation for the next day's spay-neuter veterinary clinic run by Forgotten Felines. Two cages of kittens were stolen. Later, one kitten was found, horribly tortured and disfigured. It was taken by a woman named Sarah to the nearest vet clinic. This kitten, named Adam, had been burned all over, and he was in very bad shape.

See http://www.adamsamendment.com/

Dr. Hinkle had to amputate Adam's tail and cut off his fried-crisp ears. Adam required many skin grafts. His back is a permanent mass of burn scars with no fur. He has been adopted and is living a fairly normal life in the care of Tina, one of the vet techs who helped saved his life.

Text here: http://www.forgottenfelines.com/v4/adam.shtml

Photos http://www.forgottenfelines.com/v4/adam_photos.shtml

Two teenage girls were eventually arrested for this crime -- a mere misdemeanor in Sonoma County. They were turned in by Caesar, a younger boy, who was horrified by what they had done.

Many people *assumed* that the perpetrators were under-socialized, mentally disturbed girls from abusive homes. However, they were juveniles, so their names and family histories were never revealed to the public. For all we know, they were actually upper-middle-class girls from good families, and church-goers as well. Animal torture cuts across social, class, race, and religious lines and can be found everywhere in society -- especially where it is condoned or treated as a mild wrist-slap misdemeanor.

Now, you tell me -- what if these girls had said that they tortured the kitten as part of a rite to get back at an abusive step-father? Would you say, "Right on! You go, girls!"

What if they had captured someone else's baby -- a human baby -- and tortured the baby in order to cause suffering to an abusive person -- or in order to create a powerful amulet of protection from bullets -- or in order to win at the casinos? Killing human children in order to make magical charms is currently being practiced in several nations, and is attested by news stories almost monthly. Is that okay?

In my opinion, and i speak only for myself, i do not think it is possible to displace the spirit and soul of an innocent young kitten or child or bird from its own body and replace it with the spirit and soul of an abusive second party, thus causing the second party to feel the pain inflicted on the kitten or child or bird.

In my opinion, and i speak only for myself, i do not believe that torture will force the spirit and soul of the tortured kitten, child, or bird to cause an unliked human being to suffer pain, remorse, or death.

In my opinion, and i speak only for myself, i simply do not believe that it is possible to rob an animal of its own spirit and soul -- even by baptising it, as Aleister Crowley claimed to have done with a poor frog -- and then to invoke into it another being's spirit and soul to suffer in its stead. The animal's life force is its own. That is what i believe. Your mileage may vary.

I also have further objections to animal torture: I believe that performing acts of torture will desensitize the perpetrators to torture, including human torture, and prepare them for war. In understanding my take on this, please understand that i also believe that most of our common and popular violent graphic media (comics, stories, films, video games) likewise desensitize people to the pain and suffering of others, and prepare them for war. Again, your mileage may vary.

Finally, i would like to reiterate that i believe that animal torture is different than humane animal sacrifice or animal butchery.

Thanks for reading this. It is important for me to clarify points on which i think i may have been less than clear.

[Miss Bri]

Thanks cat for that post.

I got halfway through the radio show and have not made it to the rooster part -- due to time constraints -- but I am sure glad to know that its coming up and where you stand on the issue.

One of the Saints I work closely with is St. Francis and I take stewardship of animals and land very seriously.

I have had to kill an animal to end its suffering on more than one occasion but I have a very hard time with animal sacrifice and/or torture. Still, I recognize that these things too are part of a traditional magical system and as a student of that system I need to know about them.

Your comments really helped me get in the right frame of mind to think about these things.

sincerely,
Briana Saussy 1154

[d K d]

(Finally, i would like to reiterate that i believe that animal torture
is different than humane animal sacrifice or animal butchery.

> > (--cat)
>

Absolutely. I was thinking that just this morning when I was boiling
eggs for kids to color and trying not to think of how the chickens who
lay those eggs are treated.

Much better the life of a farm-raised hen, who, when her egg-laying
days are over, gets a quick and humane end and winds up in the
dumplings pot. Her life was spent roaming and scratching in the dirt
and weeds, eating table scraps and chicken feed and taking dust baths -
- all those wonderful things chickens so enjoy.

blessings,

d Kate dooley #1295

[CKioni]

Point of correction. There is NO animal torture in Palo; albeit
pinning a rooster to a tree alive may be considered cruel.

(I disagree. It is animal torture. Think of that poor bird, his chest cut open, a packet of red pepper and goofer dust shoved in, his body then wrapped in black cloth, nailed to a tree alive -- and left there to slowly die. That is torture. --cat)

consider we kill millions of animals everyday with no religious or magical intentions.

(I myself have slaughtered many chickens. It can be done quickly, without inflicting needless suffering. --cat)

Ritual sacrifice is done as swiftly and humanely as possible. Before any animal is offered up, it is cleansed and prayed over. The animal is told its soul is being released from bondage to work on a higher plane.

(I tried to make it very clear that i was not disrespecting humane animal sacrifice, although i have not practiced it and will never practice it, for the reasons i stated. --cat)

Conversely, the hoodoo tradition of boiling a black cat alive is animal torture. ~ Dr. Kioni

(I agree, and i oppose that hoodoo practice as well as the torture of frogs, which is also quite common in hoodoo. Animal torture and human torture are something i firmly oppose at all levels, no matter what the cultural tradition behind it.

(I feel it important also to say that i believe we can work to better our world. For instance, as a liberal hippie, i support the death penalty for humans under certain circumstances, as a Jew, i oppose the inequal treatment of women as described in the Tanakh, and as a Christian, i oppose the inequal treatment of women as described in the Greek Christian Scriptures. --cat)

Funny, today is Easter. God abandoned Jesus to slowly die a tortuous death. So, we CELEBRATE a man crucified on a cross and tortured to
death, but cry "fowl" over a rooster suffering a similar fate. How twisted LOL!!

DrKioni.com - CongoRoots.com

(What God permits is God's choice, and i am not God. Your mileage may vary. --cat)

[Susan Diamond]

cat,

Thank you so much for this. Animal torture is one of the most disturbing things to me.

I actually share many of the beliefs you've expressed regarding sacrifice. In addition to time spent, in ancient times a single pig may be raised to feed an entire village. To offer it to the gods was truly a sacrifice and an act of faith!

I try to spend TIME on offerings and often advise others to do the same. Time is for most people their most precious commodity today. If it is easy to offer, it is not a sacrifice. For instance, if someone wants to make an offering to Oshun (Spirit of the River), I might reccommend they spend several hours or days or even months (depending on what is asked for in return) cleaning rivers. The reaction to this is usually something like "can't I just throw 5 oranges in the River or put honey on my altar?"

(So true! And thanks for keeping real about it. The offering to the river that ignores the fact that the river itself is polluted and dying is an offering in name only, in my opinion. Speaking of the deity-spirits of polluted rivers, and their redemption, i highly recommend the Japanese anime, "Spirited Away" by Hayao Miyazaki. --cat)

Also, in some traditions, such as Palo, as I've been taught, it is the blood itself, which contains ashe, that is important in certain offerings, for instance in trying to save a life, and not neccesarily the cost or measure of the sacrifice. I was also taught it should never be abused and in almost all cases alternatives can be found. Bones, personal concerns, etc. all have traces of life force energy. I know a Tata who formulated "blood" by recreating its chemical breakdown. Not sure of the Ashe value in that. But an interesting idea for what it's worth.

Blessings,
Susan Diamond
(#1184)

(Thanks for your comments. I do not deny the sacrificial value of blood. I simply oppose animal torture. It's a pretty clean statement on my part, and it is not intended as a statement of disrespect for anyone's religion.

(Had i known that the radio show would lead to advocation of animal torture, i would have not participated. Again, i am not opposing discussions of culturally normative animal sacrifice, although i refuse to view or participate in such activities myself, but i am firmly opposing animal torture. I have asked Dr. Kioni to never advocate animal torture on the show again, and if he does so, i will withdraw the use of the Lucky Mojo name and financial sponsorship from the show.--cat)

[druidess157]

> (Thanks for reading this. It is important for me to clarify points
on which i think i may have been less than clear.
> >
> (--cat)
>
Thanks for clarifying this. I think sometimes, for me, the kinds of
things that were and can be done by a rootworker bring back sometime
that was also stated before. Having knowledge of how something is done
does not imply that we, as future rootworker practitioners, have to
do. I have some of the same ideas that cat brought up around living
creature issues of soul, etc. I think it is helpful to know what can
and is done.

Perhaps it is a case of not wanting to be "painted by the same brush"
as other workers who do those things. I do not know.

I do know this. My own internal compass does not find that acceptable
for me. I can understand and respect a practice that I would not do
myself for my own ethical reasons. The best thing that comes from this
is at least be clear about my own biases.

Somewhere in the course, there is some words that cat wrote about
deciding what kinds of work you are willing to do. Me, I could not see
myself being competent in a working I thought was so wrong, as my
intention would be counteracted by my own reaction. I would not be
able to do the job.


Charlene Ross
#1099

[Tanisia Mooney]

I would like to comment specifically on the "Adam" case, having been at "ground zero" of that horrible case last year. I was working as acting Executive Secretary to the two assistant District Attorneys for the County of Sonoma's District Attorney Office. I was mainly the assistant to Ms. Christine Cook, one of the Assistant DA's who is also the District Attorney's media liaison for the public. When we received word about Adam, the burned kitten, and when the official story hit the papers, the public outcry was HUGE! That day, Ms. Cook received about 45 minutes worth of screaming, crying, outraged messages from concerned citizens on her voice mail. To stem the tide, the DA's office created a recorded message concerning Adam's case, and the calls that didn't stop at the message were forwarded to a "live person." (Guess who?)

The stock answer I had to give the public was "I understand your concerns. This is a horrible incident, and I sympathize with your feelings. I'm sorry that I can't give you any information on the progress of this case, since the suspects are juveniles, and the proceedings are closed to the public. Please be assured that the District Attorney will NOT let this crime go unpunished; we will prosecute this case to the fullest extent of the law." Most of the people wanted to lock the girls in a cage and set THEM on fire, to "see how they liked it." Several wanted to adopt Adam immediately, or wanted updated information on his condition. (I referred them to Forgotten Felines for the latest updates.)

As for the case itself, what I'm revealing now has also been published in the Press Democrat, so I'm not violating any confidentiality oaths.

This crime was committed in one of our "poor" neighborhoods, the Apple Valley area, a concentration of mostly Mexican/Latino and Native American families. The two girls arrested for torturing Adam were taken into custody, and the father protested their arrest. He claimed that the girls didn't do this horrible act of their own free will--despite **eyewitness accounts** (my emphasis) of seeing the girls LAUGHING in front of the cage's smouldering remains, then running off when they thought someone was looking at them. (The little boy--not involved--who saw the girls, was eventually given a reward for reporting the crime.)

According to the father, it must have been some "younger" boys who were part of a local gang (Nortenos, I think) who did the deed, then left the girls at the cage. His daughters had been "threatened" by the local gangs and/or "abused" by neighborhood people, and now they were in danger because of all the publicity. All this was said in a bid to get the girls out on bail early.

What touched me the most about this case were two things.

One, there were a handful of callers who protested all the attention that Adam was getting. "There was a teenager murdered last week, too. (Gang incident, by the way.) Why isn't there an outcry for him? Why spend all this time, attention, and money (about $35,000+ in donations, at last count) on some stray cat who was going to die anyway?" The callousness of those remarks was breathtaking.

Two, despite everything, Adam was healing, getting better, eating solid foods, and even through all the painful operations and interventions to save his life . . . he purred and licked the vet's hand whenever she got near. He eventually started playing with his toys in his cage. He even got a "normal" playmate to play with. The resilience of this creature, his obviously strong will to live, also took my breath away, and made the vet's job easier to fight and advocate to save Adam's life so heroically.

To be clear, the following statement is not meant as a criticism or slight toward ANYONE. (Except maybe toward those girls.)

I don't know how I would feel to be asked to ritually sacrifice an animal (humane or otherwise), to feel its lifeblood coursing through it and its heart beating away in my hands, to then suddenly snuff it out by knife or by my own hand. I've never worked on a farm, and the one time I went to one and a chicken was to be butchered for dinner, I couldn't watch or stomach the experience. I, too, personally could NEVER willfully torture another creature for my own benefit. Animal butchering for food or ritual (humane) sacrifice is one thing. Deliberately making another animal suffer for sport, like these two girls did, is beyond imagining, beyond an abomination.

Every life is precious. When I give thanks for my food, I usually put a rider to thank all the animals, vegetables, minerals and people who gave up their lives (and their time, in the case of people) so I may have continued nourishment on this Earth. I know, from my studies, that when done right, animal sacrifice is done in the same type of frame of mind.

Tanisia Mooney, Student #469 [G]

(Thanks, Tanisia, for the behind-the-scenes story on Adam. I confess that i was one of those folks who wanted to put the girls in a cage and set them on fire. I also sympathized with those who felt that the earlier gang-related killing had not gotten enough publicity. It should have, of course. But i think the idea was that human beings join gangs out of free will, while a kitten trapped in a cage has no defense at all against human cruelty and abuse. Again, thanks for the further information. --cat)

[Priestess Najah]

I am SO glad to know cat would not have participated in the radio show, had she known animal torture would have been graphically described, and advocated as a means to achieving a goal. This type of Palo magic or spell or whatever is completely against my personal beliefs. If I felt this is what I would need to do, to do hoodoo, I'd know I was in the wrong place, for me. I am so glad to get back to our hooodoo and rootwork topics, led by our dear cat.

Najah Lightfoot Bagley #1262

[Dr Johannes]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Christos Kioni" <drkioni@...> wrote:

"Human sacrifice, cannibalism, bestiality and more surround this interesting case. The clients say they have been on the run for over 10 years trying to escape their past. Listen as cat and Dr. Kioni discuss protection magic."

Thank you for putting up another interesting case. This one had my eyebrow rising, though.

Are these facts presented in the show really enough to cast a death spell?

Would you go out shooting this guy in the head for a few thousand bucks after litening to the story presented there?

If we add the famous back door; "if justified..." will the spell just go "poof" in front of the assumed targets face?

Death spells are the most expensive ones and therefore very attractive for a professional conjuror and a sure buck if cast with the back door, right?

Hmm...

Personally I would like something far more substantial than a story sounding like something any religious fundamentalist could have said about Hoodoo; "Yeah, Its a sect! They eat little children. Put them mad dogs down!" before I took a life.

Once the trigger is pulled a bullet can't be stopped easily and you can't unring a bell.

Naturally Dr. Kioni must have had more facts than those presented in the show or was planning to collect more facts at the meeting he had booked with the clients further ahead. I'm just talking about what was presented in the show.

The fact that the chicken issue seems more controversial than the actual aim of the spell (based on the facts presented in the show by those two ladies and a divination) raises the question of whether a root doctor should be a dog to be turned loose by the command of such clients.

As Paladin said in one of the episodes of "Have Gun Will Travel"; "Well, sorry, but things like this happen.", when he'd just shot an innocent boy. Then he went hunting down his lying employers.

As I said, it was a great and interesting show. Thanks again for putting it up.

#321 (G)(GA) Johannes Gardback

[CKioni]

I did not agree to cast a lethal spell on last WED show. cat asked me
how I would go about taking someone out and I replied with lethal
remedies I know. If I use lethal force it must be justified and
verified through divination. I do not sacrifice animals to support
someone's twisted idea of vengeance and I am not a magical mercenary.
Often times in my work some form of justice is measured out, but
rarely are the effects lethal. Sometimes life can be worse than death.
A lethal spell does not always have to kill . . . consider what I say.

Everyone has their idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable
regarding animal sacrifice in hoodoo and other magical traditions. I
have no argument about personal preferences be they religious or
otherwise. We simply agree to disagree agreeably.

I felt we had a captivating show last week. Obviously the topic and
spells discussed hit a nerve. The show announcement sent to this
Yahoo! Group was descriptive of the subject matter. However I never
felt the show was about neither animal torture nor the prosecution of
Satanist. I was simply trying to help empower two very frighten
ladies. I do apologize if anyone was offended, but sometimes "doing da
hoodoo" ain't kitchen table witch pretty. ~ Dr. Kioni

DrKioni.com - CongoRoots.com

[Clarise Creary]

Hi Cat and Dr Christos Kioni

I would like to contribute a little feedback on this topic, (human and animal sacrifice). In Jamaica part of my tradition is usually, whenever a new house is build the owner would kill a chicken, (fowl) and sprinkle the blood in the four corners of the foundation before construction of the building could re-start. This practice or belief is, this sacrifice would bless the new house and would take away any cross-condition or tricks an enemy might lay down for the owners. It is also a blessing to bless the house. The chicken carcase would not be eaten but either buried in the foundation of the house or throw away in the fields or bushes.

I collect old books on old English pagan customs and belief, herbs and brews, This is one of the recipe I faintly remember.
Take one frog tie him up-side down and leave him to hang upside down for several days. "I can not remember how many days". Catch all the secretion that comes out of this creature and use it cure this aliment. I also understand from another book that pagan in the olden days means "country people".

In the Hebrews olden times, I think it was Jacob Or Isaac who was going to sacrifice his only sun but God procures a lamb for him in stead. I do not believe in human sacrifice, (killing a human), but on the other hand I do believe in sacrificing animals without long suffering to the animals. I know I can sacrifice in other ways, (giving up bad habits, keep the commandment, etc, etc).

All my fellow student please for give my spellings and do remember we are all individually and we have all rights to express our opinions and views has long as it is not detrimental to others and please for give me if I unwittingly hurt any one's feelings in my feedback.

Kind regards Clarise Creary 1254

(Clarise, thank you for your comments, but i am afraid you may have missed the point. No one here is (i hope!) ignorant of the various forms of sacrifice used in religions -- or of animal torture used in spell-craft. My online book "Hoodoo in Theory ad Practice" gives mention of animal torture spells, as does my book "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic." I could tell you a hundred more spells involving animal abuse and torture, should you wish to read them. We have not been discussing the history of these rites or their origins or meanings. The point that was taken was that i personally (me, cat yronwode, not Dr. Kioni) have gone on record many times in print and in person as being opposed to the torture of animals who are being used as surrogates for antagonists in spell-craft. The spell that Kioni described that involved causing a rooster to suffer great pain for an extnded peiod of time before death, as a surrogate for an enemy, was something that troubled many of my students and colleagues, who wrote to me asking if i had changed my mind about this matter and now condoned such practices. I answered many of these queries in private, to save space here, but eventually, in order to stop the tide of questions and the time i was spending on private replies, i decided to write out my beliefs in a couple of posts here. I in no way intended to disrespct anyone, but i needed to firmly restate what most of my students know is my life-long opposition to animal abuse and torture. Having done so in no uncertain terms, i think that i can consider this matter closed, and i hope you will too. --cat)

[catherineyronwode]

Thanks, Johannes.

It was my understanding also that Dr. Kioni had previously gathered much more information on the case because he had been working with these clients for some time. He indicated as well that he will be meeting with them and will make his own determination on how to proceed at that time. What we presented were some ideas for how to warn, protect, and relieve a victim from threats of the dire supernatural sort that they described.

I had some skepticism, but trusted Dr. Kioni's connection to the case. Still, you will note that my first questions were about the physical safety of the callers and, since the horrific and illegal events they reported had taken place in the past, they had contacted the police. The answer -- that they had but that the site of the atrocities had burned down leaving no evidence, that the police did not believe them, that one family member had been jailed for sexual abuse and was now out of prison, and that they were not interested in getting a restraining order because the man was not near them -- that was all i was offered in the way of data. One must go with what one is told by clients, but when extraordinary claims are made, of secret cannibal cults, for instance, one must tread with even more care and caution. And that is what both Dr. Kioni and i did. You must also understand that these shows are unrehearsed and spontaneous, and that on none of these shows have i been briefed on the case.

Also, as is obvious, Dr. Kioni and i do not always work the same way. I was shocked and grossed out by his recommendation to cut open a living chicken, and nail it to a tree. If this happened in my jurisdiction he would be fined at the least and many would ask for him to serve jail time. In Florida, where he lives, different laws may apply, but as i understand it, animal torture, especially of domesticated species, is against the law in most states.

Yes, the show was shocking and opened a lot of questions up -- including the subject of using an animal as a surrogate or "doll-baby" -- but that is not a bad thing. Rather, it gives us all an opportunity to discuss our own approaches to the believability of clients who present with such extreme issues as well as our own personal limits concerning the involvement of animals as surrogates and the employment of animal torture as a form of magic.

[Tanisia Mooney]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Christos Kioni" <drkioni@...> wrote:
> >
> I did not agree to cast a lethal spell on last WED show. cat asked me
> how I would go about taking someone out and I replied with lethal
> remedies I know. If I use lethal force it must be justified and
> verified through divination. I do not sacrifice animals to support
> someone's twisted idea of vengeance and I am not a magical mercenary.

I had to comment here. Again, being the newbie journeyman (woman?)
Conjure practitioner, I was surprised at the number and volume of
people who, when first contacting me, want me to "throw" for them on
their say-so. "How much will you charge me to cast a love spell on
so-and-so?" "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to put up with their
mess. How much do you charge to cast a reversal/crossing/cursing spell?"

It's a chore, sometimes, having to slow the prospective client down
and get them to understand that I'm not a magical hitman or "hired
wand" (the phrase I use, being a Harry Potter fan), and that
spiritual/magical means of resolving a situation isn't an instant
thing. In my opinion, it's a subset of the Big Question that the
client ALWAYS asks in some form or another: "Is magic real, and does
it work unfailingly, all of the time?"

[snip]
> > Everyone has their idea of what is acceptable and not acceptable
> regarding animal sacrifice in hoodoo and other magical traditions. I
> have no argument about personal preferences be they religious or
> otherwise. We simply agree to disagree agreeably.
>
> I felt we had a captivating show last week. Obviously the topic and
> spells discussed hit a nerve. The show announcement sent to this
> Yahoo! Group was descriptive of the subject matter. However I never
> felt the show was about neither animal torture nor the prosecution of
> Satanist. I was simply trying to help empower two very frightened
> ladies. I do apologize if anyone was offended, but sometimes "doing da
> hoodoo" ain't kitchen table witch pretty. ~ Dr. Kioni
>
> DrKioni.com - CongoRoots.com

Thank you, Dr. Kioni. This reminds me of the lengthy discussion about
"Ethics in Hoodoo" that occurred earlier this year (late January-early
February), where there was concern about the lessons on the
not-so-comfortable aspects of Hoodoo. (Graveyard spells, "sneaky
tricks", revenge and reversing, live things in you, etc.) Your
mileage may vary, but it comes back again to how the practitioner
personally chooses to perform the work, whether the methods are part
of a religious tradition, like Palo or Candomble (from my
understanding, there are strict guidelines for animal sacrifice that
are taught under oath in these traditions, and would not normally be
known or open to lay practitioners), or if the practitioner chooses to
modify or omit certain practices because of their own
personal/religious beliefs.

For myself, and sometimes on behalf of other clients, I've had my own
fits of "running hot" and envisioning horrible acts that I could do,
or could have done, to "get back" at some situations or individuals.
(My ex-husband's "other woman" comes instantly to mind!) However,
ultimately I choose more moderate methods in my work. But that's a
personal choice--a choice all spiritual practitioners make when
casting spells of any type, whether that choice is dictated by their
own chosen religious tradition/path or their own conscience.

Tanisia Mooney, Student #469 [G]

[Dr Johannes]

I know the show is unrehersed and that a major part of the
conversation with clients is to empower them.
I just think that some things in the minds of our clients should not
be fed or in any other way empowered.

We all get those clients wanting us to kill the source of their
problems since killing with magic is not punishable by mundane law
in either of our countries.
Personally, I can´t help but thinking of the 1500 years of my own
countries history when killing (or destroying which is keeping the
targets barely alive) was the only magical act punishable by death.

The disputable question is not about the ingredients of killing
spells themselves or the fact that they are used.

I agree that mad dogs should be stopped by any means. But killing as
means of taking away paranoid fears should at least be last on the
list of actions and not the first option to be waved before a
frightened client in a flirtatious way.

Clients can be hid from the abusors mind (Example: Popular Spell by
Mickaharic).

Clients can be heavily protected thus giving them a sense of comfort.

Clients fears can be emptied using eggs.

Clients can be empowered by making them recieve more love from their
surroundings and themself by any simple love spell.

Clients can be made to feel powerful towards their antagonists by
having them put their antagonist in their shoe, pissing mon them etc.

Target can be emptied of some of their hate using the eggs or
similar.

Target can be confused and turned towards something else to keep
their minds busy.

Just to name a few options.

All these things ought come before death, in my opinion.

Because to me, a lethal spell does not mean a warning spell.

It does not mean that they are crippled or having their lives
destroyed.

It means they die.

In regards of the power behind the spell it means I would be
emotionally and moraly capable of shooting them in the head if
neccesary.

You said, "I did not agree to cast a lethal spell on last WED show. cat asked me how I would go about taking someone out..." If you would not cast the particular chicken/centipede spell did you think that something like that could or should be cast for the ladies?

I interpreted that as, yes a killing spell could be cast but not
necessarily involving torturing chickens. Maybe I heard wrong or did not understand the underlying subtleties of the language or have
misunderstood something in the cultural context of the American way.

Yes, the capacity to kill, mutilate and turn people into vegetables
are in the hands of a skilled and determined Root Doctor.
But it it a good thing to use that fact as a way to empower the
least intelligent ideas of our clients?

If we want to flag conjure as something equivalent to Hells Angels,
yes.

If we want to advertise conjure as something frightening adding to
the reputation of badness that already surrounds it, then yes.

If we want to put ourselves in a position where we,
sooner or later have to put our money where our mouth is, then yes.

Lets hope the information we have gathered then is enough not to put
an innocent target to death.

#321 (G)(GA) Johannes Gardback

[CKioni]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Johannes" <votangreen@...> wrote:
> > #321 (G)(GA) Johannes Gardback
>

Johannes,

I understand your concerns. We have difficult choices to make on
behalf of clients. Each practitioner must work as lead by faith and
convictions. ~ Dr. Kioni

DrKioni.com - CongoRoots.com

[CKioni]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, "Tanisia Mooney"
<spiritsister.geo@...> wrote:

> > Tanisia Mooney, Student #469 [G]
>

Hi Tanisia,

Thank you for appearing on the show with cat and me last night.
Your client's case was very interesting. I enjoyed hearing how you are
working your cases. I see the emergence of a great two headed doctor
in you. Makes me proud to call you a colleague. I wish you the success
I wish myself.

For the record, I have someone I consult independently before doing
lethal work. Once my divination is clear, I contact my Padrino and ask
him to do a divination with his Nfumbe. If he confirms the reading
then I proceed. If he doesn't I don't. The scriptures says "in the
mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established." KJVB

Finally, thank you for your thought provoking comments. I enjoy
reading your post. Looking forward to seeing you again in May. ~ Dr. Kioni

DrKioni.com - CongoRoots.com

[deaconmillett]

--- In hrcourse@yahoogroups.com, Clarise Creary <clarisecreary@...> wrote:
> >
> Hi Cat and Dr Christos Kioni
>
> I would like to contribute a little feedback on this topic, (human
> and animal sacrifice). In Jamaica part of my tradition is usually,
> whenever a new house is build the owner would kill a chicken, (fowl)
> and sprinkle the blood in the four corners of the foundation before
> construction of the building could re-start. This practice or belief
> is, this sacrifice would bless the new house and would take away any
> cross-condition or tricks an enemy might lay down for the owners. It
> is also a blessing to bless the house. The chicken carcase would not
> be eaten but either buried in the foundation of the house or throw
> away in the fields or bushes.

<snip>

I am finally turning my garage into a library, and Clarise's comments
made me think about that project. In particular, what can I do on top
of the current foundation, before the tile is laid, to consecrate the
space for spiritual and creative pursuits?

It's one opportunity to permanently mark the floor in a "secret" way.

Fred Burke
#1045

(You could mark the "five spot" with consecrated wisdom herbs (e..g. Solomn Seal) or zoological wisdom curios (e.g. wise old Owl feathers), and/or draw an appropriate talismanic figure, Solomonic Seal, Mosaic seal, veve, or other such spiritual design and/or prepare a paper for the center of the five-spot naming your favourite authors and books to lay down beneath the library floor. Five-spot piles of dirt from Alexandia or the nearest Carnegie Library, or even the UT Library would always be appropriate, too! --cat)

[docstrange]

I am usually inclined to be pretty taciturn
when it comes to these recent discussions but
this last weeks case was pretty outrageous.
First... I must say that it is very helpful to
hear examples of real people coming for help, as
it really gives a much richer idea of how workers
approach various problems. I appreciate
the effort of putting on the show and it is a
unique learning resource. So thanks to Dr. K
and cat.

Personally, I hold very much to a rootDOCTOR
approach with an emphasis on the
doctoring which is probably due to my training
and worldview. That being said, I think the
most important phase of working with a client
is diagnosis. Not that you have to figure it
out right away, but you should put serious
effort into it and be willing to go back and
rethink it. Otherwise what you do can make
people worse or be useless.

These two women were obviously suffering and
I take that seriously. However their
version of events immediately set off numerous
red flags. I have spent years doing
forensic work so I have the benefit of that
angle, and I can say that cannibalism is so
exceedlngly rare that there are only a few
cases in the last hundred years. There has
never ever been a case of familial cannibalism.

(As you say, cannibalism is rare -- but although there are examples well known to the crime-reading public (Albert Fish, Issei Sagawa, Stanley Dean Baker, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gein, etc.), none of them are familial cannibals.

What they were describing was a classic
"satanic ritual abuse" scenario. These claims
of multigenerational cults have been
investigated for years in many countries and
there has never been one shred of forensic
evidence.

(This is why i asked if the cult had a name, if the police had been called, if evidence had been found, if prosecutions had resulted. The answers i received did not reassure me any more than they did you. Something was happening to them, on some level, perhaps subjective, but even when asked straight0out, they made no attempt to provide collateral confirmations of their extraordinary claims. --cat)

I have treated cases in the past,
and I know it is common for two family
members to develop a folie a deux, a shared
persecutory delusion which evolves into a
heroic us against the world thing. That is
not to say that sadism and sociopathy do not
run in families, since they can. And sociopaths
love to create evil devilish personas to
dominate people. But the story had too may
bizarre persecutory elements to it, since most
families do not have the monetary resources to
send strangers to other states to harass
people.

Personally, I would have stuck to the protecive
aspects of the work. In my experience,
protective spells also protect against the
demons of fear that people carry within them, so
they are appropriate for people with paranoia
that is not necessarily reality based.

(That is what i did. --cat)

I would guess that these women have made outrageous
claims to law enforcement in the past that
has estranged them from their whole family (even
though I don't discount that particular
family members might have committed a real
crime at one time).

I would also work on increasing their personal
power and wisdom so that they could be
released from their suffering and feel that
they could move on with more positive aspects
of their relationships and lives. Oftentimes
these victims hold on tightly to these fearful
stories because it is the only thing that gives
meaning to their otherwise bleak existence.

I am sure my response sounds far too cynical to
many. I would be interested to hear more
responses.

James Dotson #962

(James, i want to thank you for this professional response. Not meaning any disrespect to the callers, my feelings about the case run close to yours. Not having the advantage of being a psychiatrist experienced with the criminally insane, i was at a loss to say what you are saying, other than to take it upon myself to ask questions and to point out repeatedly that extraordinary claims involving crimes of such far-reaching magnitude and severe legal consequences require verifiable substantiation. --cat)

[Clarise Creary]

( [...] I in no way intended to disrespect anyone, but i needed to firmly restate what most of my students know is my life-long opposition to animal abuse and torture. Having done so in no uncertain terms, i think that i can consider this matter closed, and i hope you will too. --cat)

Hi Cat

Thanks . I will not take your comment personally. One of the reason why my guardian spirits sent me to you, because you always tell it as it is. I also understanding many great philosophers love to communicate and to listen, (Pluto). Therefore you are the teacher and I am the student and I am willing to learn.

Kind regards Clarise Creary 1254

(Thanks for your understanding. --cat)

[deaconmillett]

> I am finally turning my garage into a library, and Clarise's comments
> made me think about that project. In particular, what can I do on top
> of the current foundation, before the tile is laid, to consecrate the
> space for spiritual and creative pursuits?
>
> It's one opportunity to permanently mark the floor in a "secret" way.
>
> Fred Burke
> #1045
>
> (You could mark the "five spot" with consecrated wisdom herbs (e..g.
Solomn Seal) or zoological wisdom curios (e.g. wise old Owl feathers),
and/or draw an appropriate talismanic figure, Solomonic Seal, Mosaic
seal, veve, or other such spiritual design and/or prepare a paper for
the center of the five-spot naming your favourite authors and books to
lay down beneath the library floor. Five-spot piles of dirt from
Alexandia or the nearest Carnegie Library, or even the UT Library
would always be appropriate, too! --cat)
> >

Great ideas, all! Thank you!!!

Fred Burke
#1045

[Clarise Creary]

Greetings Motherkali

I was reading this posting and I have learned a lot from the article. I live way in London, England. Please, please could you post more of Cat and Dr Kioni roots radio show. In my Jamaican dialect I would say the show was "wicked and bad", interpretation: "very good."

Thanks for putting the show in print.

Clarise Creary 1254

(Clarise, Michaele Maurer (Mother Kali / Red Jasper) has been faithfully transcribing our radio shows for quite a while. You can find her transcriptions of many past shows, going back a couple of years, right here in the archives of this Yahoo group. She is a valued member of our community due to the time and effort she puts into these transcriptions, and all of us are grateful for her dedication to this work. --cat)

[KM]

----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Christos Kioni

Hi Tanisia,

Thank you for appearing on the show with cat and me last night.
Your client's case was very interesting. I enjoyed hearing how you are
working your cases. I see the emergence of a great two headed doctor
in you. Makes me proud to call you a colleague. I wish you the
success I wish myself. [...]

-----
i forgot what a two headed doctor is

was aunt caroline dye a two headed doctor?

could you explain it to me?

thanks

kristi marcus

#1216

(See the HITAP page on "Hoodoo History" at
http://luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html
-- and, yes, Aunt Caroline Dye was a two-headed doctor, as am i. --cat)

[Clarise Creary]

Thanks Cat.

1254 Clarise Creary