Hoodoo, Religion, and Religious Magic: Voodoo Wicca Santeria Witchcraft Christianity Atheism

Unread post by **Devi Spring** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:43 pm

skyme714,

Here's the most simple way to look at it:

God is busy ruling over the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. So there are saints who not only share a special close buddy-buddy relationship with God by being saints, but they are only responsible for a handful of duties here on earth. You pray to a saint who handles your kind of cases. Hopefully the saint hears you, and then takes your petition up to God, who is more likely to take quick notice and action since it's a good friend of his asking for help on your behalf; or if you want to look at it another way, you could say that they are authorized to perform certain duties using their own powers bequeathed to them by God. Either way, you get the help you need directly from a specialist whose only job it is to look after people like you. Unlike God who is busy ruling the ENTIRE UNIVERSE.

It's like akin to calling Bill Gates directly when your computer has crashed, as opposed to calling tech support. You're MUCH more likely to get what you need quickly by calling tech support who are there specifically to deal with your exact problem, than by trying to get the attention of Mr. Gates who can most likely fix your problem but has a list of priorities that you don't rank very high on.

I *personally* see "God" as an impersonal force. There are intermediary spiritual beings who were created specifically to look after my needs. Therefore I ask those spirits for help, rather than trying to tap into the Ineffable Infinity of Limitless Light in order to get some money for rent. I only worship Source/God, but I'm happy to share thanks and devotions to other spiritual helpers. I am not Catholic, but I find using some saint work in my conjure to be very effective; to me it's just another kind of spirit-work. This perspective is mirrored in some of the ATR's, the Kabbalah, and several other mystical traditions. (Of course it is by no means the only way things are perceived.)

Unread post by **ConjureMan** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:57 pm

skyme714,

I was taught Conjure by an old-school teacher who didn't work with saints. In fact she once told me "you gotta problem, you call on God, the Devil, or you call the spirits." I think that was perfect for helping me understand what paradigm conjure functions in.

Some traditions, Catholicism being one of them, views God as remote and therefore requires the intercession of entities who have access to both God and us. This is where you get petitioning of Saints.

Personally, I follow a more hermetic qabalist tradition that along with most forms of Protestant Christianity views mankind as part of God's Spirit and therefore has clear access to Him.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:02 pm

Kevinloa, at the outset you asked for samples of how Southern Baptists might pray, and although the following has been posted here before, in another threead, you may not have seen it, so i am copying it into this thread for you:

-----

Here is a sample of a very common form of prayer. This is a general "Deacon's prayer" -- common among Black Baptists -- sometimes called "You woke us up this morning" (a title taken from the first few lines of the prayer). To this invocation can be attached any request for help or improvement in life (e.g. "I want you to stop by the court house").

Hasan Green, the young man performing this sample, is more or less practicing for the camera, but he has a beautiful voice, tone, and heart, and it shows, despite his little "LOL" comment in the info-box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNvclTp4dUs

-----

Enjoy!

kevinloa74 · Unread post by **kevinloa74** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:33 pm

thank you, catherine, this is interesting.

NotDorianGray · Unread post by **NotDorianGray** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:46 am

Cut crystal bowls I inherited from my grandmother. Great for putting offerings in.

Those things at the bottom of your pot plant pots... You know the ones... Saucer-y thingy... The small ones are good for standing candles in. Clay, cheap, and they don't burn.

Sewing thread, in many colours. Great for tying things up.

Scented talcum powder - I have both lavender and sandalwood. Not the real thing, but I've used both in a pinch.

Mirror. I grabbed one off the wall the other day and threw it behind a spell set up to reflect harm away from my client.

Cardboard box - needed an altar while I was moving house. It worked fine with a sheet over it.

Gift bags. No one wraps anything anymore, so I have heps of these. When I tie up herbs and hang them up to dry, I hang them inside the bag and hang the bag by its handles. No waste!

Also... vacuum cleaner. I know I'm not the only one who spills incense.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:00 am

I store loose items in nice vintage containers. Old tin-litho boxes, ranging in size from little candy tins to larger cream cracker tins, hold tea lights, joss stick incense, spare candles, pins, sewing thread spools, and so forth. I don't need to label them because i have a good visual memory, so i know that, for instance, "Whitman's Cloisonne chocolate candy tin = mini Rider-Waite-Smith tarot cards" and "Huntley and Palmer Gem Biscuits = Indian agarbathi incense sticks."

Bibi2 · Unread post by **Bibi2** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:25 pm

I do that too, ms. cat! I've got all sorts of small, beautiful tins to hold herbs, incense, and other important things.

mojojunkie · Unread post by **mojojunkie** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:31 am

hi everyone. im new to all this and just had a quick question. is working with catholic saints and citing psalms necessary to practice hoodoo? i grew up catholic but unfortunately everything about it turns me off. nothing about it resonates with me at all and im afraid because of that i wont get anywhere in my practice if thats the case. any advice would be much appreciated. thanks.

lachina · Unread post by **lachina** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:40 am

no, the background of hoodoo is protestant. so no it's not necessary to work with the saints -though they do help quite a bit if you do- but i do think that citing psalms is called for in many spells. working with the saints and pslams is not the same thing you can do one without the other

NotDorianGray · Unread post by **NotDorianGray** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:00 am

Ms Cat has written quite a lot about the roots of of hoodoo in HITP. You may find it both interesting and educational to have a look through the website and read some of the history of the conjure tradition.

Unread post by **Mama Micki** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:07 am

Psalms can be used by anyone who believes in God. Although they are part of the Hebrew (Old Testament) Bible, they have similiarities to hymns that were used in ancient Egypt.

Do not confuse faith in God with membership in a particular church or acceptance of the teachings of any church. It is between you and God.

miz_michelle · Unread post by **miz_michelle** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:19 am

Hello to everyone,
I am new to the Lucky mojo community, and have thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts and replies. Ya'll seem like a very knowledgable and friendly group of people. I have purchased a few things from Lucky Mojo, including Miss Cat's awesome book. My question is regarding which products to purchase next. You see, my husband, for lack of a better turn of phrase, is a black hole of financial woe. He is currently unemployed and spends money hand over fist. I work full time and make an okay salary, but it is not sufficient to keep up with his spending. I purchased the Van Van Spell Kit a couple of weeks ago, and recently completed the ritual. It seems to be working, since I have been asked to work some much needed overtime. I thought about working with St. Martha to "control my beast", but there are alot of other products that address the same issue, such as the Domination and Controlling Spells. Which do you all think would be most beneficial for my condition?

Thanks to you all for any advice, it will be much appreciated!
Miz Michelle

Unread post by **jwmcclin** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:33 am

Welcome Miz Michelle. Have you had a reading on your situation? That way you will get info on the best or workable avenue to take to 'control your beast.' Saint Martha is a great saint to work with on controlling men. You will see a lot of her admiration here in the forum. But first you probably should get a reading on the situation. Have you read about Saint Martha and how to petition her?

miz_michelle · Unread post by **miz_michelle** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:55 am

Thank you jwmcclin for your speedy reply,
Yes, I certainly have considered getting a reading, as I believe I need one. Problem is, it took me a month just to save for the things I purchased from LM, thanks to the aforementioned Black Hole. What I desperately need is something that will keep under wraps long enough for me to get ahead. I have read alot about St. Martha, here in the forum and on other webpages. There is some confusion regarding candle color (green, some say...others say red), and differing methods of petitioning her for assistance. As you say however, a reading is definitely in order, and the best place to begin.

Thank you, and God bless!
Miz Michelle

thelightfantastic · Unread post by **thelightfantastic** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:07 pm

Getting a reading before starting any spellwork is certainly ideal, but sometimes you just can't afford it or you need to get something done NOW. In cases like that, I would recommend petitioning the Saint of your choice (Saint Martha in your case) as much isn't needed to begin that work. To find out what you need to petition Saint Martha, just do a forum search.

I would ask Saint Martha to get your hubby to settle down on the wanton spending and to get a job to help ease your financial difficulties. As soon as you have enough money, check out the readers/rootworks at AIRR and then go from there.

janeymack · Unread post by **janeymack** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:46 am

Jeesh. Sorry to hear this. Just a thought tho. Your partner sounds more like a parasite than a husband. Do you really want to control your parasite or should you just consider the possibility that you deserve a MAN who can look after YOU rather than you be his mommy for the rest of his life.

Some people are like wheelbarrows. The only function as far as you can you pick them up and push them. Maybe you should consider a handsome charismatic go-getter instead.

I am sure he would be much more fun to be around.

Unread post by **Mama Micki** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:49 am

Start a separate bank account and put all your earnings into it. Make a doll of your husband and dress it with Compelling, Controlling, Commanding, or Essence of Bendover oil.

miz_michelle · Unread post by **miz_michelle** » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:36 pm

Thank you all so much for the great ideas! I will definitely petition St. Martha and see if she is willing to work with me on this. The doll is an excellent idea, along with the necessary oils, and certainly worth the effort. Am currently saving for a reading, as I really believe I need one. Extra cash goes under the mattress (he'll never think to look there) LOL @ wheelbarrows, although I have considered hitting him with a lamp (just kidding....well, sort of!)

Thanks again, and God Bless
Miz Michelle

Rukia Fae · Unread post by **Rukia Fae** » Wed May 12, 2010 5:48 pm

Herbs- I grow as much as I can (and remember to plant, though thats a whole other issue...lol)
basil- grow tons all summer to last me though the winter.
lavender- I don't use it all that often, but keep a plant or two (they always die over the winter

) so I can at least have some cuttings if I need it.
parsley, cilantro, thyme - i grow every year
Green and purple (sometimes called red, i think) shiso - which is like a japanese basil. Love how it looks and hubby (who is japanese) uses it in some of his pickling (is that a word?) recipes. Wish I could find a 'magickal' use for it - any ideas? it reseeds and its EVERYWHERE (I forgot to move the pots last winter LOL)
I prefer to grow mine from seed, as I feel closer to the plant that way, but some plants i just dont do well with from seed. oh well...lol

around the house stuff - I guess if i had no other choice, I would use 'common' utensils or things for a working, but i try to keep it separate.
I keep my oils in a wooden recipe box. easy to conceal and easy for me to get to.
When mixing oils, I only mix the amount i need, and in my house, we have a lot of unique small soy sauce dishes- perfect size, so I have a couple of those I stole for my purposes and keep in my cabinet

I bathe once or twice a week in epsom salt ( a whole bag to a bathtub) for cleansing. sometimes ill add a few drops of van van oil to it, but im not crazy about the smell, so not too often. I use sea salt to cleanse and purify items.

glass jars w/ metal lids! Love 'em! hubby has learned to NOT throw his away (why is it so many asian foods come in the perfect size jar???). I have a good stash of them in the pantry.

I"m sure theres more, but for me (and every one is different) i do use household stuff, but have 're-purposed' it for its new job. another good one - olive oil. All the oils I make i use olive oil as the base. can't get much more ordinary than that!

Several years ago, when at a renaissance faire and keeping an eye out for a tiny athame (wanted specifically to carve on candles, so needed tiny) i came across a metal worker and he made these hair pins. only I didnt see a hair pin- i saw the PERFECT utensil to scribe on my candles! And its still one of my favorite things and I use it ALL the time!

by the way miss cat - LOVE the tin!

what a great thread! love hearing how others do things!

mojojunkie · Unread post by **mojojunkie** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:27 am

I know I'm late replying...sorry...but I have a huge 5 subject notebook completely dedicated to this site and its contents. It's filled with info I've been learning about so I'm well aware of the history of conjure and what not. I think my main problem is the association part. Since growing up first Lutheran then Catholic, and never feeling any kind of vibe towards anything related to Christianity. Just the thought of attempting to use saints or even read from the Bible i felt would make me feel like a hypocrite. But thanks for your replies, especially Mama Micki. You really "kicked me in the ass" with that one. lol It was just what I needed to hear. I just needed to get over it as in just do it already, less thinking (I'm a Gemini; I cant help it!) and more magic. Thanks again guys!!

ShadowyEmbrace · Unread post by **ShadowyEmbrace** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:25 am

I've been wondering can you ask petitions to the saints without actually conducting a ritual just a candle burning?

Unread post by **Devi Spring** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:25 am

Yes, Catholics do that all the time.

thewriteguy · Unread post by **thewriteguy** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:26 pm

I have been doing ongoing work for several situations.... I have been working with Saint Expedite, Saint Jude, Saint Sebastian and a few others... Things are really going great and a lot of things turned around for the better for me. My rootworker and my saints are truly amazing. I hope any of you out here who are working on things, don't give up. I worked on more than one situation, if you have any questions or anything feel free to ask on this post or pm me. LM oils are great too.

YouTube · Unread post by **Miss Bri** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:27 pm

They are and thanks for sharing! I love working with St. Expedite and St. Francis of Assisi also is very special to me. Another group of spiritual aides are the Catholic Folks Saints like Dr. Gregorio Hernandez and Santisima Muerte--Lucky Mojo makes oils for some of them as well!
Blessings,
Bri

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sweetie0923 · Unread post by **sweetie0923** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:43 am

Hello All! First of all, forgive me if this has already been discussed but I don't see anything in the searches. I am a (fairly new and baptized) Christian and in bible study it was discussed that God does not allow voodoo or other practices. But, I have seen products that utilize the Catholic saints, etc and I am wondering, am I doing something wrong by being a Christian and a practitioner? Please know that my question is not meant to offend anyone, just hoping for some clarity.
Thank you to anyone who can help!

Unread post by **SeraSatyr** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:56 am

Hey there,

I am also a Christian and a pretty theologically conservative one as well, and I know in a very real way what it's like to work through that issue.

There are tons of things (and people) I could recommend, but one thing you might find helpful to get the ball rolling is listening to this episode of the Lucky Mojo Hoodoo Rootwork Hour RadioBlog:

http://hoodoorootwork.blogspot.com/2005 ... nd_07.html

Unread post by **Devi Spring** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:05 pm

Hi Sweetie0923

Conjure is a system of primarily African-American folk-magic that is rooted in Christianity.

Obviously there are many different denominations of Christianity, and they all take different dogmatic stances on various things. I am certainly aware of those denominations that think poorly of anything that they perceive as being "magic", as most of my family is from such churches. (It's interesting that many of those same churches think nothing of anointing a sick person with oil while praying for them, or of lighting a candle with prayer to ask for God's aid with a situation, or many other ritual actions that really are quite magical AND spoken of and recommended in the Bible.) However, there are also denominations that embrace these kinds of spiritual practices.

As someone who studied religion academically in university, I can tell you that it can be extremely enlightening to research the history and development of Christianity, as well as all the sources of the various doctrinal interpretations that you encounter. The socio-cultural contexts that many of the scripture verses were written in, are very often not taken into consideration by those who take a particular perspective on things. I would strongly encourage you to really look into the historical backgrounds of these things. You will be surprised what you find! Then you can make an educated decision on what exactly the Bible is saying about certain things.

Remember that while God inspired the Bible, it was written and interpreted and edited and reinterpreted again by humans- and humans are fallible and often very biased. Do some research and then do some praying and then draw your own conclusions as to what is right for your spiritual path.

It is up to *you* to decide whether or not to practice conjure - pray on it, ask God for guidance, and listen for His response to you. It's between you and God and it's nobody else's business!

You may be interested to read more about the development of hoodoo and conjure too, so that you can see how very rooted in Christian practice it is. You may find this link very informative for those purposes:
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

Edward · Unread post by **Edward** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:21 pm

Bottom line: Some Christians say yes and some say no. You will have to decide for yourself. But you also want to be aware of the people around you and exercise discretion if you choose to continue your practice.

Unread post by **Miss Tammie Lee** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:36 pm

All of the above agreed... I am listening right now to the show Sarasatyr kindly provided the link for the show. episode, "African American Christianity and Hoodoo".
I had been listening online (just finished with another episode, "Ridding of Ghosts and Evil Spirits") with the archived radio show.
Be Blessed!

faith2008 · Unread post by **faith2008** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:51 pm

I am so glad this topic came up. It's something that I have wanted to ask about but have been afraid that it might be considered off topic and/or it might offend and that's the last thing I want to do. Conjure is something that has interested me for the longest of times but growing up in the "bible belt" and being raised baptist I can't help but have these little voices in the back of my head at times screaming "this is wrong". It makes me feel better to know that I'm not the only one who is or who has struggled with this.

Thank you Devi for your words. It gives me something to research and thank you SeraSatyr for the link I am sure it will be very informative. Maybe now I can put things more into place as I know this has been holding me back for the longest of times and I believe hindering my work.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:27 pm

sweetie0923,

Your question is pretty off-topic for this forum, because we try very hard NOT to discuss religions here.

However, that being said, not only is hoodoo primarily African American in terms of the culture that carries it, it is primarily Protestant Christian in terms of the religion of most adherents.

To take this a step further, the dominant denominations among African American Christians are various Baptist denominations, so one could very reasonably say that hoodoo is the folk magic of a group of primarily Black Baptist Americans, although people of all faiths and all ethnicities have been participants in hoodoo for as far back as we have any kind of written documentation for the practice (that is, to the mid 19th century).

However, it is equally important to note that many Protestant Christians, including many African American Baptists, do not like the practice of folk magic at all, and shun those who engage in it, so one cannot assume that just because a person is an African American Baptist, he or she will approve of, engage in, or even know much about hoodoo rootwork and conjure practices.

Finally, your post mentioned "voodoo" -- more properly spelled Voodoo or Voudoo, with a capital V, since it is the name of a religion.

Voodoo is the state religion of the African nation of Benin, in West Africa, and in modified and diasporic form, it has many adherents in French-speaking Haiti, and among Americans. The religion of Voodoo is not in any demonstrable way connected to the practice of hoodoo folk magic by African Americans, because hoodoo derives primarily from a different part of Africa, and contains strong admixtures of Native American, Jewish, and European Christian folk magic which are not part of the religion of Voodoo.

Thanks to all who contributed and helped carry on the discussion in a friendly and socially welcoming manner.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:22 am

I was asked:

Is there a difference between the Catholic St Expedite", and the St Expedite that so many readers of this forum work with?

Saint Expedite is a regular saint of the Catholic Church. You can see his statue in Catholic churches in Portugal, Spain, and the United States. In the USA, the best-known statue of Saint Expedite is found in the church of Guadalupe in New Orleans.

Saint Expedite is not a "folk saint" in the general use of that term -- that is, an entity called a "saint" by Catholics but who not approved by the Vatican (such as Santa Muerte). On the contrary, Saint Expedite Holy cards are printd by the regular Vatican-approved Catholic printers in Italy.

Are there "Hoodoo saints" that are different entities to Catholic saints?

Yes ... and No. In the context of hoodoo, the word "saint" may refer to Catholic church saints, Catholic folk saints, deceased members of the Baptist church who died in faith, and living members of the Pentecostal churches who are in good standing in the congregation. . (In addition, members of other religions also use the term "saint," notably Buddhism, but that need not concern us here.)

Should I think of the whole "working with saints" thing as popular, but not really part of conjure?[

I will go farther and say that what you call "the whole 'working with saints' thing" is "popular" among the relatively small number of African Americans who are Catholics and Spiritualists -- but is unduly represented here on the forum by a huge influx of Latino Catholic practitioners of the folk magic traditions of curandismo and brujeria, plus Latino and Caucasian practitioners of African-Diasporic religions such as Santeria and Voodoo -- many of whom are trying to graft the Southern American traditions of conjure work into their own cultural and religious traditions.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:33 am

skyme714 ,

Okay,you got plenty of replies from non-Catholic hoodoo workers, a link to an article at AIRR about the petitioning of saints by Catholics, and a reply from someone who does petition saints.

Lucky Mojo is non-denominational.

We do carry many supplies for Catholic rootworkers, but we do as much also for members of other faiths, such as Protestant Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, Wicca, and so forth.

tboy1977 · Unread post by **tboy1977** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:39 pm

What is the difference between Wicca and Hoodoo? I read where Hoodoo is an African folk magick and Voodoo uses the Catholic saints (so it is merged with Christianity?)? I'm lot on this. I told my reader I was doing some Wicca spells to help myself and she said Wicca was "weak"? /so what kinds of magick are there? I'm confused by it all. So far it would seem (based on Miss Cat's observation of my past work) that it has been working.

Unread post by **ConjureMan** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:06 pm

Tboy1977, this is not a general hoodoo forum, but rather this is a product forum specifically about the wonderful spiritual products that Lucky Mojo makes and how to use them.

First, Wicca and Voodoo are religions. They may have magical practices as part of their system of faith, but they exist as faiths.

Hoodoo is not a religion, but rather a system of folk magick that is derived from African American culture. There are hundreds of systems of magick. We cannot go into the differences between each of these. All I can tell you is that most of your questions have already been answered by the link that you've been given a dozen times. If you go to HITAP (http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html) you will find the following article: http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html which is titled: "What is Hoodoo." That is a direct answer to your question.

Please read the links we are giving you.

Unread post by **LilJessiRoss** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:20 pm

Hey Y'all!

It's Lil' Jessi Ross #1444G. I rarely post on here, as I am not big on forums, but I would love y'all's input!
Ever since I moved into my apartment, I have had dreams about churches in my neighbourhood (West Oakland). If there is one thing I have learned in my life, it's that dreams shouldn't be ignored, so as woman of my word, I am here asking for y'all's opinions.

I checked out the miss cat's list of California Spiritual, Spiritist, and Spiritualist churches (http://www.yronwode.org/Spiritual-Spiri ... ornia.html) to see if she had any recommendations in my neighbourhood. Two churches caught my eye and are very close to me. Unfortuantely, neither of their phone numbers work and the internet claims that one of them moved. (I will list this info below). I hope to ride my bike by them and see what their signs say, but I have been struggling with severe migraines lately and haven't had much energy for biking .So, really, I am just wondering if anyone has any personal experience with either of these churches that they would like to share with me? Secondly, does anyone know whether the Metropolitan church actually did move? Lastly, I am open to suggestions for other churches, near me, as well.

Thanks so much!
With love and blessings,
Lil' Jessi

Metropolitan Spiritual Church- The phone phone number doesn't work and the internet says it moved from 2510 Filbert St. near 24th and 25th Streets, near Market Street to 1159 32nd Street

Mount Zion Spiritual Temple Church- phone doesn't work 1488 14th Street btwn Center and Peralta

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:27 pm

Thanks for checking in, Jessi -- when you do find out about what is going on with these churches, please let me know so that i can update their listings.

Unread post by **Joseph Magnuson** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:06 pm

I also agree with Cat in that I would love to hear/read a few reviews of the churches from you...it would be a great service to some of the members of the forums who live very close to your area! Thank you and good luck!

-Joseph

snake · Unread post by **snake** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:44 pm

I haven't been through West Oakland in a while but there was a big purple building on 35th St. that is a Spiritualist Church http://www.yelp.com/biz/starlight-cathedral-oakland I could never figure out what time their services are and I don't think the phone number on yelp is correct, but it's a big purple church that you can't miss.

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:20 am

Hey, didja see who wrote the glowing review on Yelp? It was Miss Michaele from this forum and from AIRR!!!

Small world!

Unread post by **Joseph Magnuson** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:19 pm

catherineyronwode wrote:Hey, didja see who wrote the glowing review on Yelp? It was Miss Michaele from this forum and from AIRR!!!

Small world!

Wow, that's great! Nice to see the "family" love!

-Joseph

Unread post by **uafoxsong** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:15 am

Friends, Afternoon. I was just making an observation. I have been a practicing Wiccan for over 20 years. I have reviewed a lot of different metaphysical studies. This is the first time I have looked in to root working or Hoodoo. I'm still a little confused.

What is the difference between Hoodoo & Voodoo?

Another thing that I have noticed, is that up to now, the root working (using oils, herbs, & stones) is very similar to the low or folk magick of Wicca (which I am familiar with).

While practicing Wicca, one is to "ever mind the rule of three". Meaning that what ever you send out into the universe, it will come back to you 3x.

How come in hoodoo, you don't have to adhere to that kind of Karmic whiplash?

I guess that what I'm asking is what is the magical responsibility of the practitioner? And where is one supposed to draw the line?

Any thoughts and responses are greatly appreciated.

I hope my questions aren't anoying anyone, I'm just trying to be careful.

Thank you.

Stacia

Unread post by **ConjureMan** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:48 am

Conjure/ Hoodoo is a set of African American spiritual practices. It is a tradition that draws its roots from Africa among other places.

Voodoo is a religion in the Afro-diasporic traditions.

Conjure is an old set of magical herbal and spiritual practices that is often termed natural magic or folk magic. Wicca shares similarities when in comes to use of oils for Wicca was exposed to such practices from conjure shops and is influenced by European folk magic.

Matters of ethics are a bit too broad for this forum, but hoodoo adheres to its own set of ethical considerations without misappropriating and misinterpreting the eastern idea of Karma.

Hope that helps.

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Unread post by **uafoxsong** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:26 pm

ConjureMan Ali, Thank you for helping me to understand. So I think what you are trying to say is that Voodoo & Wicca are both religions. Root working is kind of like being a "magick user" without the religious connotations, while still being a spiritual experience. Secondly, not going into Karma, what are the ethical considerations of Hoodoo that you mentioned? Thank you in advance...Stacia

Unread post by **ConjureMan** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:10 pm

It is certainly more than being a "magick user." Hoodoo and Conjure are spiritual practices that are informed and highly influenced from the cultural context that gave rise to them. This includes Germanic spiritual practices, African traditions, Jewish and Near Eastern influences, and Protestant Christian spirituality.

The ethics of conjure is highly contingent upon the practitioner and their God. Some of us are willing to take on cases of justice for we feel the Lord calls us to be harbingers of His Justice, while those who are "lady-hearted" choose an ethical path that involves no harm to others.

Conjure is deeply rooted in spirituality, but not bogged down or convoluted by dogma. For further information on the subject please read here: http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

Now, I'd like to welcome you to the forum. Please bare in mind that this is a product forum and not a general hoodoo forum.

Unread post by **uafoxsong** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:46 pm

ConjureMan Ali, Please know I meant no disrespect when I used the term "magick user". It is a personal term that I use in my daily life. Thank you for the link and the in-site. And my apology for all of the questions on this forum.

Unread post by **ConjureMan** » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:15 pm

No apology necessary. No offense was taken. If you have further questions on such topics don't hesitate to ask.

For all Lucky Mojo related questions--post away!

Purple Dragon · Unread post by **Purple Dragon** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:43 am

Hello everyone,
I have been lurking a long time and am considering aiming towards taking catherine's Hoodoo Rootwork Correspondence Course. After much reading around on the 'net, I find that although many are tolerant of using rootwork in an eclectic way, a lot are dead against it. Some seen angry and disgusted, believing it to be disrespectful. I would never wish to insult a long standing practice.

I was refreshingly pleased when I first encountered the Lucky Mojo website, because it accepts one's personal freedom to adapt rootwork to one's own path.

My confusion is this: If it's okay to change the name of say, the Saints or Jesus for a figure from a different pantheon other than Christian, then why are people using the Psalms and Jesus' name so often in their work?

Is this simply a matter of personal preference?

What am I missing here?

Apologies for irritating anyone with my naivety! I have looked hard for clear answers and am having difficulty clarifying it.

Thanks!!

Unread post by **ConjureMan** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:03 pm

With Conjure and hoodoo becoming so readily available people are adopting its practices into their own lives. Traditionally this was a practice passed down in families or from conjure worker to student. The context was generally Protestant Christian with the occassional regional variations of Catholic influence. In the internet age people outside of these backgrounds have access to it.

This is a beautiful thing. However, when we speak of traditional conjure it involves the spiritual background of Protestant Christianity. This means Jesus and the Psalms. People are free to adopt the practices and make them their own. I believe the frustration some old school conjure doctors have is that people are taking hoodoo, taking parts of it, making it their own, and claiming it is still hoodoo. In reality what results is a personal practice.

So take welcome, take around and you'll come to appreciate and love conjure for what it is. Should you have any questions about Lucky Mojo products don't hesitate to ask!

Purple Dragon · Unread post by **Purple Dragon** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:16 pm

Thanks for that! I'm pleased you cleared that up for me, I know now that I will not refer to myself as a practitioner of Hoodoo, instead I will simply remain 'ecclectic' and without labels. I like this site, and am looking forward to this journey.

Blessings
Purple Dragon

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 pm

Hello, Purple Dragon, and welcome to this forum.

Your questions are worthy of consideration, and i will respond in detail (after which i will place this answer on one of my web pages, so others can find it too).

I suggest that you start by reading the chapter of "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice" (a free online book i have written) which is titled "History of Hoodoo." You can read it here:

http://luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

After you read that, you will, i hope, understand that i am embarked on one path only -- to reflect to the world the Black Protestant Christian practices of conjure, rootwork, and hoodoo which i learned through personal contact and training with practitioners, starting in the early 1960s, and also found corroborated in a variety of ethnographic and folkloric magazine articles and books published from the 1870s through the 1970s. .

If you choose to study with me, i will interview you at the outset, and during our talk together, i will ask you about your and your family's ethnicity, culture, and religion. I will do this in order to best help you approach what may be for you either the folk magic of your mother-culture or the folk magic of a very different culture than your own. I will also do this because it has been my experience, after teaching and training more than 1,600 students, that in order to understand the basis of hoodoo and rootwork practices, a student who is, say, 28 years old, Hindu, and a recent immigrant to the USA from India, will require more background information about African American social and political history than a student who is, say, 46 years old, of African American / Native American descent, and has grown up in the Baptist Church in North Carolina.

I do not teach people religion, but i do expect my students to understand that 95% of hoodoo practitioners are Black Protestants. That's just the truth. That's just how it is. And i hope that all my students, no matter what their own religious backgrounds, were taught by their mothers, as mine taught me, that if you are invited to someone's house for dinner, you are to say Amen when they say grace.

Am i "tolerant of using rootwork in an eclectic way"?

As a person, sure, i am tolerant, but as a teacher of conjure, i am not really that tolerant -- because i love, practice, teach, and transmit what i myself was taught, and it is not "eclectic" in the sense in which you are using the word. That is, traditional hoodoo may contain many admixtures from various cultures, but its culture-bearers are and always have been primarily Christians and its spell-work is conceived in a Judeo-Christian framework.

Of course, i also recognize that it is not my place, role, or authority to stop or to try to stop people from "using rootwork in an eclectic way." That's between them and their god(s).

No matter what religion you profess, or how religiously eclectic you are, you will do just fine as my student as long as you understand that my Hoodoo Rootwork Correspondence Course will not be dealing with revivals of Neo-Pagan European religions (e.g. Wicca, Druidry, Heathenism), importations of West African and Caribbean religions (e.g. Lukumi, Santeria, Voodoo), or lodge systems grounded in Hermetic texts or Christianized Pseudo-Kaballah (e.g. Thelema). You may be an adherent of any of these religions -- or any other religion -- but these religions did not contribute greatly to the development of hoodoo and conjure in America, so aside from a few mentions, they will not be the subject of discussion. Rather, the course, when it discusses religion at all, will deal with the religious background of domestic African American conjure practitioners.

My students acknowledge, respect, and honour the fact that hoodoo is a Black American Christian magical way of working, and that in addition to its African core, it contains strong and distinctly identifiable admixtures of Native American, Anglo-Saxon (Germanic-British), Scottish-Irish (Gaelic), Jewish, and other folk magical practices mingled into it. All HRCC homework turned in will be accepted only insofar as it accords with those premises (e.g. in reviewing the homework in which students make an oil, i will reject an "Oil of Oshun" or "Oil of Hecate") and this is why i make a point that of the two homeworks that consist of collecting folkloric beliefs, one of the two items collected must be from a Black American source.

Finally, in the matter of whether i teach "working with saints," i explain at the outset to each student that i teach as i was taught, for my purpose is transmission, not creation de novo -- and for the most part i was taught by Protestant Christian conjure workers. Institutionally speaking, Protestant Christians do not venerate or "work with" saints, although they may invoke the aid of angels and other spirits.

If you are not familiar with the predominance of Protestant versus Catholic traditions in African American society, i suggest that you review the data at BlackDemographics.com,

This site summarizes a number of polls, studies, and demographic reports on African American religious affiliations. The figures arrived at by the several demographic studies are in disagreement by a few percentage points, so i will give the ranges:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Importance of religion in African American society:

* 82 % of Blacks (vs. 55% of Whites) say that religion is "very important in their life".
* 82% of Blacks (vs. 67% of Whites) are church members.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Frequency of Christianity in African American society:

* 82% of African Americans are Christians

* 45 - 50% of African Americans consider themselves Baptist Christians (e.g. Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Free-Will Baptist, Missionary Baptist, and other African-American Baptist denominations)

* 9 - 15% of African Americans consider themselves denominationally unidentified "generic" Christians (e.g. they call themselves Christian, Protestant Christian, Evangelical Christian, Born Again Christian, Fundamentalist Christian, Independent Christian, Christian Spiritualist)

* 7 - 12% of African Americans consider themselves Mainline Christians (e.g. Methodist, United Methodist, African Methodist, African Methodist Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Anglican, United Church of Christ, Congregational, Reformed, Dutch Reform, Disciples of Christ, Moravian, Quaker)

* 6 - 7 % of African Americans consider themselves Pentecostal Christians (e.g. Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, Full Gospel, Four Square Gospel, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, Holiness, Sanctified, Nazarene, Salvation Army)

* 4 - 6% of African Americans consider themselves non-denominational Protestant Christians (e.g. they call themselves "Non-Denominational Protestant Christian")

* 4 - 6% of African Americans consider themselves Catholic Christians (e.g. Roman, Greek, Eastern Rite)

(These numbers total a range from 76 - 96%, but the ranges derive from different studies and the averaged total should work out to about 82% of all African Americans considering themselves Christians -- with 96% of those African Americans who identify as Christians further identifying themselves as Protestant Christians. In other words, approximately 78% of African Americans consider themselves Protestant Christians, and 4% of African Americans consider themselves Catholic Christians.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Frequency of non-Christian religions in African American society:

* 6 - 7% of African Americans consider themselves Muslims (e.g. Shiite, Sunni, Black Muslim, Nation of Islam)

* 1% of African Americans consider themselves of a "new" or "other" religion (e.g. New Thought, Religious Science, Unitarian-Universalist, Deist, New Age, Eckankar, Wiccan, Pagan, Druid, Native American Religion, Kemetic, Santeria, Lukumi, Palo, Rastafarian,Voodoo, Scientology)

* Less than 1% of African Americans consider themselves Jews (e.g. Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Hasidic, Liberal)

* Less than 1% of African Americans consider themselves members of Asian religions (e.g. Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Baha'I, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, Sikh)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Frequency of non-religiosity, agnosticism, and atheism in African American society:

* 6 - 11% of African Americans consider themselves of "no religious affiliation" (e.g. Humanistic, Ethical Culture, Agnostic, Atheist, Secular)

* 1 - 2% of African Americans surveyed refused to answer questions about religion or responded "i don't know" when asked their religion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now, once you understand that my mission is transmission, and that i will teach you what i myself was taught, not something that i have made up or something that is artificially "eclectic" or "all-inclusive," then you will have a clear understanding of what i teach with respect to religions in my Hoodoo Rootwork Correspondence Course.

You will also now understand the answer to your question, "If it's okay to change the name of say, the saints or Jesus for a figure from a different pantheon other than Christian, then why are people using the Psalms and Jesus' name so often in their work?"

The answer is, "people are using the Psalms and Jesus' name so often in their work, because 'their work' is the folk magic of African American people, 82% of whom are Christians."

Thanks for asking!

Purple Dragon · Unread post by **Purple Dragon** » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:27 am

Thank you! This has helped enormously. I am drawn to this path of Hoodoo, I now realize that I cannot study it let alone practice it without being very uncomfortable... oh dear, that is a shame but I honestly could never live with this.

Your website is wonderful, and I learned a great deal about the path and also myself. Out of respect, my personal path will not include Hoodoo, although I already work with roots and herbs, powders and such and have done as a Pagan and witch of very many years. Again, thank you for your lengthy and speedy reply to my question! Be blessed

Sean n Shawnee · Unread post by **Sean n Shawnee** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:38 am

I have real interest in learning more about hoodoo and magic, I would like to incorporate it into Buddhist faith. Will it be possible for me to be successful with blending the two? I know the slaves of Africa and those on early America blended African beliefs and Christan or even Catholic saints and concepts, so can Buddhist do the same thing? The Hindu Vedas (particularly the 4th) contain many magical spells, rituals and more.

Most Sincerely
Sean

atmaweapon · Unread post by **atmaweapon** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:42 am

Greetings everyone!

I have a question regarding mixing magical practices. I'm a follower of the Ásatrú religion, but I also follow some Catholic practices (I was baptised and raised as a Catholic). While basically I'm a polytheist, I incorporate into my spiritual life some Catholic practices (I go to church, I pray the rosary and I pray the psalms for magical purposes). My interest in incorporating these Catholic elements in my practice began when I read the "Galdrabók" (an Icelandic book of magic) where it states that for some time in Iceland, the pagan and Christian ideologies were syncretized, and indeed, some of the spells contained therein include both pagan and Christian elements.

My question is if I can practice these two currents with good results? Will my "Catholic spells" work if I believe in pagan deities, and viceversa? I don't feel that I'm inventing anything new, as this was done for the most part of the High Middle Ages in the Germanic territories, but I was wondering if this will bring the results that I'm looking for.

Julio

Unread post by **Devi Spring** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:51 am

Welcome to the forum.

The focus of the Lucky Mojo Curio Co Product Forum is discussing the use of Lucky Mojo products in traditional conjure, and is not a general magical practice discussion board. So unfortunately your query is off-topic for this forum here.

There are plenty of practitioners that have a blended spirituality, myself included, that incorporates non-Christian elements and spirits into their work successfully. It is a matter that each practitioner must navigate for themselves, and it is between them and their gods. There is no one answer to your question.

By all means learn about conjure, which is a primarily African American North American Protestant Christian form of folk magic, though some regions such as New Orleans do work deeply with more Catholic elements such as saints, and see if it is useful to you in your path.
The free online book Hoodoo in Theory and Practice is a great place to start: http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

Blessings on your path!

Unread post by **Devi Spring** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:57 am

Some practitioners do have blended paths, but is a personal thing that comes from the study and practice of each tradition in its original context, and then finding points of intelligent syncretism from there. Elements of Buddhism and Hinduism did make their way into hoodoo, primarily as "lucky" figures and out of a curiosity for the exotic, as hoodoo is primarily a Protestant Christian form of folk magic.

Again, it's up to you to learn what you can, and see what works for you.

However this forum is for the discussion of Lucky Mojo products and how to use them, not for general discussion on magical practice, so your query is off-topic for this particular forum. There are some lovely discussion groups on the internet where your questions will be more appropriate, and you will likely find many interesting opinions to guide you on your way.

RJLupin · Unread post by **RJLupin** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:13 am

If this is the wrong place, I apologize. Been a member here for a while, and thought this seemed the best place to ask this. On another board I'm on, there's currently a (rather heated) debate about what religion, traditionally, most Hoodoo practitioners thought of themselves as.

From what I know, it was a more or less Christian practice; obviously, most of the workings rely heavily on Psalms, prayers, saints, and other Judeo-Christian elements. It's also my understanding that most practitioners made a sharp distinction between themselves and what they did, and "witches" and "witchcraft." Now, obviously Hoodoo draws from many sources, including African religions and various Spiritualist practices, but my argument has been that the majority of workers viewed themselves as Christian and saw their work in a Christian (albeit, a folk Christian) context.

It's someone else's view that no, they weren't all Christian, that Christianity was just a front, and that they were in fact members of some African religion, or else some sort of Pagan.

They argue that because magic is involved, these people couldn't possibly be Christians, and that they were in fact witches of some stripe. This person claims that, because they know some modern-day workers who aren't Christians and yet claim to practice traditional Hoodoo, that this proves that it's never been a Christian practice. I've pointed out that even mainline Christian beliefs and practices have borrowed heavily from pagan and traditional religious sources, and yet that doesn't make them not Christian, but to no avail.

I am no expert on the history of Hoodoo, and not knowing any traditional practitioners myself, I'm seeking opinions from the more experienced people here. Not so much so I can win some argument, but mainly just to satisfy my own interest.

As a non-Christian myself, I've tried very hard to respect the traditional aspects of Hoodoo, and not try to re-write it to suit my own needs. I confess, I am a little put out with certain sectors of the pagan community who, in my opinion, are using revisionist claims in order to appropriate Hoodoo and other Christian folk magic for themselves, and to classify as "pagans" and "witches" people who probably would have been horrified at the very suggestion.

Any insights, links, interviews, and works you could steer me towards would be very much appreciated. There is of course a lot on the internet, but not all of it is good and it's hard to know what to believe.
Thanks!

Unread post by **Miss Ida Lundin** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:08 am

Hi RJLupin,

your post has been moved into the religion thread, and you can read in this very thread. Also read this:

http://luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

Unread post by **catherineyronwode** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:56 am

RJLupin,

The history of hoodoo is fascinating. I suggest that rather than take my word or the word of others in this regard, you simply purchase a copy of the 1926 book "Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro" by Newbell Nilles Puckett. The book is racist, but it will educate you in about 5 hours of reading and you will be satisfied, i thuink, as to the Christian nature of historical hoodoo.

I also suggest that you look at the reality of TODAY'S hoodoo. Most practitioners are Christians and most are adherents of Protestant denominations. The statistics cited above should help you in that regard.

Even more to the point would be to make a few friends among practitioners rather than viewing the material from the outside. In other words, seek out African American friends, not internet authorities.

If conjure were a sport, you'd soon come to understand that this game is played with a ball on the court, not in your basement or bedroom with an electronic control-box in your hands. Get it?

Here's a helpful video for you:

ZION HILL DEACONS DEVOTION.mpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hOy4TKr ... 28A9C3C6AE
PASTOR STEPHEN SUMMEROW INSTALLATION SERVICE AT GREATER FRIENDSHIP MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH MACON GA

ThatOldSycorax · Unread post by **ThatOldSycorax** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:22 pm

I have sort of an odd question: Can someone mix magic? I mean can someone take magic learnings from Hoodoo and mix them with Brujeria and then add some Wicca into the equation? Would branching out cancel out the effect of the entire working of magic? Or would mixing different traditions make the whole thing a tad bit stronger?

Personally I do a bit of everything; I look at what cultures I came from (Mexican Indian, Spanish, French, Romany and Jewish) and I draw inspiration from them. I use some Spanish spells for one task and then Romany rituals and wisdom for the next. I have a kind of notebook that has loads of different rituals, formulas and spells from a rather large of eclectic group. I refuse to call it a book of shadows because I don't conform to one distinct path of magic. Personally I just label everything I practice Thessilia after the Greek Thessilian Witches, supposedly they were famous for their feats, even the Greek gods feared their abilities.