Hoodoo, Religion, and Religious Magic: Voodoo Wicca Santeria Witchcraft Christianity Atheism

[Devi Spring]

Hi Elphie, please read above in this thread about Asatru, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.

This topic is off-topic here at the Lucky Mojo product forum. You can likely find some internet groups where you'll find more open discussions about general magical subjects where you can get deeper into this.

[RJLupin]

RJLupin,

If conjure were a sport, you'd soon come to understand that this game is played with a ball on the court, not in your basement or bedroom with an electronic control-box in your hands. Get it?

Indeed I do, and this is more or less what I already thought. My argument was that Hoodoo had such a strong basis in Christian tradition, that you couldn't remove that from it and still claim that what you were doing was the real thing. I think there's an unfortunate tendency towards revisionism going on now in some Neo-Pagan quarters, where they're trying to claim it as some kind of Pagan practice.

Thanks again for the links. I'll check them out. Hopefully, with the historical stuff handy, I'll be better prepared for next time.

[catherineyronwode]

Here is a selection of Deacon's Prayers. This is how i was taught to pray in a needed time:

Baptist Deacon's Prayer - Hasan Green
(the best lesson in prayer you will find on youtube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNvclTp4dUs

Deacon Albert Farley Praying
(long and specific, but it includes the entire 23rd Psalm)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJn8VUBaDs0

Old Skool pastor prayer by cress 4790
(a uniformed police officer prays in the break room, and yes, he can tone it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWMDlT8ZP1s

Tyler Perry "Why Did We Get Maried" Deacon's Prayer Parody:
('cause what good is religion if we can't smile about it now and then?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hPTUUqib8

[ConjureMan]

These are awesome Miss cat! They remind me of some fond memories.

"I believe I can fry" LOL

[pbgnewgirl]

Hi guys,

I am new to luckymojo.com and loving it. The forums are very informative and the staff very knowledgable.

I was wondering for some time now, but didnt have the guts to ask, cause I didnt want it to be seen as asking two "silly" questions.

(1) Is it possible that one form of magic is stronger than another. In my heart I believe that to be true but I dont have enough experience to know for sure. Can one form of magic be stronger than another?

(2) I have yet to try a luckymojo.com gambling mojo bag....i hope i will be successful....cause money is needed very badly. What can I do to get a large amount of money very quickly?

Thanks for reading.

[Devi Spring]

Asking if one religion's beliefs and practices are "stronger" than another's is very off-topic for the Lucky Mojo Hoodoo Product forum.

There are many different factors that go into why a work may be effective or not. The skill of the practitioner who is crafting the items is one. The quality of the items used in the crafting is another. The situation surrounding the person who is using it is yet another.

In magic there really isn't a "better" or "more powerful" - there are things that may be better suited to or more effective for specific people or specific circumstances. But just because one thing works best for one person, does NOT mean that it will work best for another.

I would say that if you want to find out what is going to work best for your specific needs in your unique situation, then you should start with a reading and consultation with a professional rootworker. You can find a list of them at http://www.readersandrootworkers.org. Then they can do divinations related to your specific case, and prescribe you exact remedy actions to suit your needs. They may even craft custom items, or do other spell work on your behalf.

Best of luck!

[NamaahFelenora]

I have only little on voodoo/hoodoo. There are some people where I live that tell me you have to be chosen to be a voodoo priestess, that you cannot just decide it is something you want to explore and find a teacher. Is this right?

Is Legba also called "Papa Legba"? One of the women told me that Papa Legba came to her in a dream and told her that they were related. He was her ancestor and now he guardian. How can a spirit be your ancestor or related if it was never in human form?

I know these are odd questions, but I don't much and am only trying learn.

Thanks for any help

[jwmcclin]

NamaahFelenora:

This forum is for the discussion of Hoodoo. Here is a link that describes the differences between hoodoo and Voodoo:

http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html

There reference you asked about Papa Legba is Voodoo.

With that said, this forum is designed by cat yronwode for customers' questions about the use of Lucky Mojo products and services. If you have further questions regarding Hoodoo and Lucky Mojo, please return......otherwise this discussion is off-topic.

[Devi Spring]

Hello Namaah-

This forum focuses on the theory and practice of hoodoo (African American folk magic) and using Lucky Mojo condition products in conjure work. Voodoo is a religion and is completely separate from the practice of hoodoo. Therefore we cannot really answer your questions as they are completely off-topic here.

There are many online discussion groups about Vodou, so I would suggest that you seek those out so that you can learn more about the subject.

To partly address one of your questions, the Lwa of Vodou are often (but not always) far distant ancestral spirits which have reached Lwa-status. It's similar to how a remarkable human being could eventually reach the status of a Saint in the Catholic church. The Lwa are more like saints and angels in nature, than like the deities that some people refer to them as, especially since Vodou is a monotheistic religion.

Also being called to serve the Lwa and being called into service as clergy are two very different things, so you will need to figure out which is which as far as you are concerned. However, if you feel no real personal interest in the path, do not let others make you feel as though you MUST do something. Every spiritual community has those who wish to gather followers and/or are looking to exploit people for money and do so through manipulation. I'm not saying that's what's going on with you, but it's just something to be aware of. Unless you actually are feeling pulled to learn more about Vodou, don't let people convince you that you need to go paying people for services that you do not want or need!

But going any further into the topic is not really appropriate here, so your thread will be moved into the thread of similar questions about various religions.

Since you are looking to learn about these topics, I would suggest that you do read through this wonderful page which describes the difference between hoodoo and Vodou, Santeria, etc.

http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoohistory.html#hoodoois

Best of luck on your journey.

[catherineyronwode]

Thanks, jwmcclin and Devi Spring, for replying to the question about Voodoo and hoodoo, which comes up so often.

Just because two words rhyme, that doesn't mean they are connected.

That's it! The next time someone asks me, "What's the difference between Voodoo and hoodoo?" i will reply. "Okay, i'll tell you that -- but first you have to tell me -- what's the difference between Taoism and Maoism?"

[lavender2]

I have a general background in occult (32 years now) and was trained as a Wicca.

Until I joined here in 2009 I knew little about hoodoo. I'm still uncomfortable with some of the "devil" spells.

Is everyone on here comfortable with calling on the Green Devil and other entities to return that which was done to them?

I was taught that we don't need to do that because of the Law of Threefold Return, that is, that whatever we put out there comes back to us three times over.

I am afraid if I use a Green Devil product (which I have) that I am messing with something I shouldn't.

Would like others' opinions.

[catherineyronwode]

Hello, lavender --

Hoodoo is not a religion, but...

If your religion training -- whatever it may be -- prohibits you from certain kinds of magical or spiritual work, then by all means, stick with your religious training.

We don't teach religious training here -- and we have participants from virtually every major religion and from most denominations within each religion. This is a forum for discussion of how to use Southern style hoodoo spiritual supplies in a down-home conjure context. Asking us for a group-consensus or majority vote about your own personal religious training is not going to be productive, i am afraid.

If you feel that you performed a magical spell in error or that by performing a particular magical spell you have violated the religious training you received, then by all means, seek atonement or forgiveness for your error according to the religious precepts to which you adhere.

Good luck!

[Aariadne]

I'm a bit surprised to read that some Baptists practice Hoodoo.

The Baptists i know are very much against ritual of any kind.

[johnford]

Hello everyone,

Hope everyone had a wonderful day, I know I've been busy up here in the winter arctic cold that is Canada.

Lately, recently more so, as I start to follow into my mother's steps of practicing and following Hoodoo and trying to figure things out and how it works and what you do and what Hoodoo is really about (which is a LOT harder then it looks) I've also been really looked down upon because of such practices here in Canada, here in Canada (specifically Ontario).

More and more as I grow as a root worker (although I'm not entirely sure I can call myself that) I've found that people feared the practice itself. They call the practice immoral and disgusting, why is that? For a few of many various kinds of reasons, urine, blood, zoological curios. etc. All these things seem to frighten people.

[I have deleted a lot of this post because it consists of bad-mouthing people of various religious and metaphysical beliefs and national origins. That simply is not allowed here. People from all backrounds and of all faiths and paths are welcome at this forum, and knocking anyone is distracting and divisive. --cat]

I understand a lot of things, more so then other people, now its my turn to ask you what its like to be a Hoodoo practitioner in your parts of the world, or states or country? Do you experience discrimination where you live?

Lastly to conclude this, I will say I find practicing Hoodoo a bit discouraging although I love it so. So I ask you, almost plead, to explain to me what its like to be a true conjure man/woman, and is it worth it in the end?

Sincerely,
John

[Devi Spring]

Hi John - I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time. I can assure you that in Toronto, Ontario there is a good sized community that practices conjure, traditional witchcraft magic, as well as the Afra-Caribbean religions such as Santeria, etc.

[Mikki]

johnford, I'm sorry you're having a rough time up there. I'm in Montgomery, Al. We have one shop and they are pretty open minded.

Why do people act like that? Fear of the unknown. Or lack of knowledge. Chances are, they see/hear hoodoo, they see/hear Voodoo. And to most people who don't know, Voodoo = bad. I blame Hollywood nowadays. They've managed to take religions like Voodoo and Paganism and twist them around completely. And some people out there are all for Hollywood!! "They say it's so, so it must be."

I'm also a Wiccan. I am a very Eclectic Pagan. I get asked if I eat babies. I say only with mayo!! People are going to continue to react like that until they are taught better. And until the media portrays us in a better light, things like this will continue to happen.

I hope things get better for you.

[ConjureMan]

I can honestly say that I haven't gotten that reactions. Oh, sure they blanch at the use of bodily fluids and what not, but generally not much judgment passing.

In fact, due to the rise of hoodoo's popularity on the internet you'll see a lot of individuals from other spiritual background adopted hoodoo practices.

[catherineyronwode]

To johnford, :

Like ConjureMan Ali, i have never had a negative reaction handed to me, but then, i discuss these matters with those who are part of my community. I mean, would you try to walk into an Italian restaurant and order coconut milk soup with lemon grass?

Get my point?

Your problem is not that people dislike hoodoo -- your problem is that you are not hooking up with Lucky Mojo. It is a domestic tradition of more than 100 years standing that folks who practice conjure tend to pick up supplies by mail order -- and at Lucky Mojo we are here to serve you in that old-time great tradition.

-----

To Aariadne

The fact that Baptist Christians practice hoodoo and that most conjure practitioners of African American descent are either Baptists or Spiritualists is so well known in this field as to be taken for granted by most of us. The reason is not that most Baptists endorse hoodoo -- it's that most African Americans are Baptists. A lot of our work is prayer, and many of us use the Psalms. It's folk magic, and it co-exists with religious practices.

I am not sure what you mean by "rituals" because the word is interpreted so many ways. But we don't usually call what we do "rituals" -- most of the old timers call the work of casting a conjure spell a "job" or "tricking" or "throwing" or "helping yourself" or some such other term.

[Lunaislight]

Mikki is right about when people hear Hoodoo they think Voodoo. When in all reality its not . I have never had a problem with reactions, and the shop I go to happens to sell a lot of Lucky Mojo Products. But I do get reactions from others who do not understand .. thats why you just learn to feel people out and see if they can handle that kind of info.

[spiritualitywoman]

Hey John, as other people have said, I think fear and ignorance about Voodoo or Witchcraft or whatever religion has been twisted by media or other people who aren't open. When it is different, they are scared. It's okay. In order for us to have the freedom to believe what we believe, we have to honor (not necessarily accept) the right for others to believe what they do.

I do most of my shopping online - LuckyMojo has SO MUCH!!

Mary D

[catherineyronwode]

The following question was asked of me in another forum, and i replied therein. Because it relates to this topic, i am reposting it here, minus the original poster's screen name:

> I am looking to take the hoodoo rootwork course,
> but the one thing I need to resolve is the one
> thing that I never expected to be an issue. I
> revere Jesus as a great teacher, but as a Pagan
> I cannot convince myself to associate with
> Christianity in any ritual work. How can I
> resolve this?

That's a good question, but i am not sure you will like my answer.

African American hoodoo, such as i teach, and such as is practiced throughout the United States, is called by academics "Christo-Conjure." The reason it is given this name is that it is the folk magic of Christians.

You do not need to be a Christian to take my course, but why would one such as you, who by reason of vows or beliefs, cannot "associate with Christianity in any ritual work," want to take a one-year course in the magical arts of Christians? The very idea would seem to be torture to you.

I assume that you could not take a course in Hindu folk magic, Jewish folk magic, Taoist folk magic, Cherokee folk magic, or Congo folk magic either -- for all of those traditions of magic are linked into (and some are directly mediated by) priests, believers, and adherents of religions outside your Pagan frame of reference.

I do not require my students to be Christians, by any means, but i do require them to participate in the form of work that i teach, as i teach it.

For some Pagans (and Jews, and Hindus, and Taoists, etc.) there is no problem working as a "guest in the house of Christ" while learning hoodoo rootwork. Many Pagans who have enrolled in the course have made very good students, and several have gone on to become my colleagues at the Association of Readers and Rootworkers. I believe that if one is comfortable and happy with the Black Baptist tradition (the majority religious thread in hoodoo), that one can approach and participate in conjure from perspectives as diverse as Gardernian Wicca, Reform Judaism, Spiritualism, Catholicism, Native American Shamnism, Santeria, Palo, and Islam.

However, as you know, there are many courses and classes in Pagan folk magic, and if Christianity is off-limits for you, then i suggest you study folk magic in the tradition to which you are most loyal and in which you are most comfortable. In other words, the limitation is yours, not mine, and if it prevents my teaching you, then so be it, and let us merry part.

Rev. catherine

[ShadowInPurple]

Ms. cat,

That was a very respectful mature response.

Truth be known, many of our forefathers AND foremothers in the 'old country' had folk or shall I say, extracurricular or extraecclesiastical activities IN ADDITION to the religious customs which were the norm. So you had little-old ladies who went to church everyday AND talked to the rose bush, could use the evil eye from fifty paces and kept a lemon with pins over their doors and, they didn't even know it, only that they learned it from their grandmothers. Though the church was in the center of town the average person still had customs which were "up in the hills" however they and Pagans still practiced 2 religions, one public and the other private. The difference was they kept the latter in their hearts and out of the public's eyes certainly away from the church. The reason was plain, the persecution and public castigation was very real and very frightening for Pagans. Of course it is also true today, to a lesser extent but I wouldn't wish to find out.

There was a time, actually not too long ago, when we both could have ended up in shackles in a dungeon then summarily met fate in the public square like Joan of Arc. We have fought long and hard to be re-recognized as a practicing faith that should not have to "stay in the shadows" or be watered down. Pagans by and large can't ignore these burning times and various episodes of hypocrisy and negative feelings by certain traditions. To do so requires a very special person. But they keep their distance and live their lives and give others the same respect. And we have attracted people by showing them that there is a difference, a healthy distinct difference that unburdens them from guilt, shame, unworthiness and threats in mainline religious activities. We don't say one's better, just different, distinct. We can learn about each other and be friends. Merry meet, Merry part, Merry may we meet again.

[ConjureMan]

ShadowInPurple ,

While your post is interesting, it does not reflect an accurate view of history, nor a true understanding of the relationship between conjure and Christianity.

First, the emphasis on how paganism was persecuted is grossly taken out of context and completely confused. First, despite claims to the contrary, there is no concept of a monolithic "paganism" in the ancient, or classical world. So a mass persecution of "pagans" is by definition completely misleading. Second, persecution is not something perpetuated by pagans, but rather an act of intolerance by religions of a great many denominations. Christians and non-Christians both suffered at the hands of oppressors. To emphasize the martyrdom of one over the other as if one was somehow a victim is simply misleading.

Finally, there was no religion of private vs. religion of public in conjure. Conjure doctors are as varied as any other peoples. Some were extremely devout and others often had run-ins with the church. However, primarily conjure doctors were accepted members of community who took on leadership roles within the church. The idea that they hid their practices is a misconception. Many reverends and pastors also were conjure doctors and their preaching from the pulpit was not merely a show. It is mistaken to assume that there is a dichotomy between the religion of conjure doctors and their practices. Your pastor was just as likely as to preach from the pulpit as he was to take out some olive oil, anoint you and pray over you right in the center of church.

To understand the intertwined relationship of conjure and its practictioners you might consider looking into the life of Jim Jordan who was brought before his church and asked to refrain from certain works while his other conjure practices were completely and openly accepted.

As Miss cat said, you don't have to be a Christian to practice conjure, but if you want to partake in the tradition you need to get right with Jesus and the Bible.

[catherineyronwode]

So true, ConjureMan Ali:

Jim Jordan, a famous conjure doctor of North Carolina, scryed for his clients with a palm ball (a small crystal ball held in the hand), but at some point card-cutting (telling fortunes with playing cards, using the old three-card cut) was frowned upon in his church. He was a floor member of his local Baptist church all his life, as well as an herb doctor and conjure worker, and he was also a Freemason in the Prince Hall Lodge system (that is, the African American tradition of Freemasonry). His church funeral was widely attended. He was a powerful member of his community.

[ShadowInPurple]

ConjureMan Ali wrote:

"[D]espite claims to the contrary, there is no concept of a monolithic "paganism" in the ancient, or classical world. So a mass persecution of "pagans" is by definition completely misleading."

I don't think I said Pagans were monolithic anywhere in the post. For example, the Romans and Druids were clearly apart from each other when Emperor Augustus said you can't be a Roman and a Druid/Gaul at the same time.

The Christian church was the "monolith" and to deny the Church's part in persecution of Pagans as well as Christians who were political enemies by accusing them of being Pagan, is irresponsible and very misleading and inaccurate.

And I have yet to see mainline acceptance of the occult by the American Baptist Churches, the Church of God in Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, etc. other than the Unitarian Universalist Association which is diverse enough to embrace many different paths.

[catherineyronwode]

ShadowinPurple,

Several of us have affirmed, based on our experiences, that "hoodoo is a form of folk magic practiced by African Americans, the majority of whom are Christians." We have been talking about conjure practitioners and the forms of religion in which they were raised and in which they work conjure. As i wrote but a few short posts ago, "The fact that Baptists practice hoodoo and that most conjure practitioners of African American descent are either Baptists or Spiritualists is so well known in this field as to be taken for granted by most of us. The reason is not that Baptists endorse hoodoo -- it's that most African Americans are Baptists. A lot of our work is prayer, and many of us use the Psalms. It's folk magic, and it co-exists with religious practices."

We affirm that hoodoo is imbued with Protestant Christian concepts, values, prayers, and methods of working.

Your counter-statement that you "have yet to see mainline acceptance of the occult by American Baptist Churches" is a contentious and provocative change of subject.

You are talking about the edicts or promulgations of a vast swath of formal clerical hierarchies (there are dozens of different Baptist Conventions in the USA), but not about practitioners at all.

Furthermore, you are describing the views of these unnamed Baptist Conventions with respect to "the occult," a topic far different from "folk magic," which is our topic here.

This type of argumentation is called "changing the goalposts." Whether or not you intended it as such, if it is long continued, it will only drag the discussion off-topic, and that will lead to deletions of posts, warnings, and even bannings if persisted in.

Please understand that this forum is not about "the occult" and it is not about religions. This thread exists to inform people who inquire about hoodoo and religion that conjure arose among and is primarily practiced by Protestant Christians, and that hoodoo is not a form of West African, Central African, or Diasporic African religion, nor a form of Religious Neo-Paganism, nor a "path" in the sense that you used the term when describing the Unitarian Universalist church.

Hoodoo is an endemic, multi-cultural American form of folk magic, and, just as Pow Wow magic arose, developed, and found wide cultural acceptance among German-Americans of the Dutch Reformed Church, a Protestant Christian denomination, so did hoodoo arise, develop, and find wide cultural acceptance among African-American members of the Baptist Church, with outliers in other Christian denominations, as outlined above in my earlier posts on African American religious demographics.

'Nuff said.

[ConjureMan]

ShadowinPurple,

My point about "paganism" was not directed towards you, but was to give context for my points later in the post. That said, you capitalize "Pagan" in your sentences and say, "Pagans by and large can't ignore these burning times and various episodes of hypocrisy and negative feelings by certain traditions," you imply that there is such a thing called Paganism to be persecuted. In reality such a concept of Paganism was never envisioned by the people involved in these traditions. These were rather the ancient and classical religions of the nations.

The idea of a "burning times" is a historical fallacy that is based on a gross oversimplification. This is perpetuated by a simplistic and superficial understanding of history. This isn't to say that persecutions did not occur on both sides (the Roman state religion, which according to your use of the term, would be pagan committed the most systematic and extensive persecution of Christians that their sheer numbers remains unrivaled today), however to imply that Christianity as a "monolithic" structure (also incorrect Christianity is as vast and myriad as any religion) had some program or standard policy of persecuting pagans is completely inacccurate.

Christianity was indeed adopted as the state religion of empires and nations, but by and large there was no universal agreement on what Christianity was. As a result Christianity spent the majority of the time trying to outline what being Christian meant. This involved attempts to correct what was believed to be incorrect teachings. Did these spiral into persecutions? Absolutely, but many of the major persecutions that modern pagan movements try to point to as being persecutions of paganism were in reality targeted at Christians themselves.

Allow me to illustrate: The persecutions in North Africa by St. Augustine (one of the figures neopagans point to as a perpetuator of persecution) killed more Donatists than any other religious sect. Donatists were a heretic sect of Christianity. Indeed his very intention was to deal with the issues the Donatists created as outlined in his own writings. The Inquisition: targeted heretical Christians--in fact it was the motiviation of the Inquisitions theological founders the Dominicians, whose sole aim was to correct what they viewed as "misguided" *Christian teachings. How about the "European" Crusades? That's right the number one target and victim was Cathar Christians, other Christian sects, and the Jews of Germany. But what about the witch hunts? Didn't they kill off witches? Nope, the majority of the people killed were Christians who were considered outsiders--this is the case in the Salem Witch Hunts too.

The point I am trying to illustrate is that the idea of a mass persecution of "pagans" during a "burning time" is a misconception and oversimplification of history. The institution of the Church was more interested in consolidating its position which they did by trying to "correct" other Christian sects. This absolutely led to persecutions. However more often than not these killings resulted in a large number of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim deaths rather than "pagan" deaths. The point however is that the idea that there was some policy or program of dealing with "pagans" is completely incorrect. Nor was there a mass persecution of "pagans."

You say, "And I have yet to see mainline acceptance of the occult by the American Baptist Churches, the Church of God in Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, etc. other than the Unitarian Universalist Association which is diverse enough to embrace many different paths." I am sorry, but you are again incorrect. "Occultism" and "paganism" are not one in the same thing. In fact to equate the two as you do shows an ignorance of what occultism is that is on par with those you claim to be intolerant. Please re-examine the major occult figures of history and consider their religions: John Dee, Maimonides, Agrippa, Albertus Magnus, Al-Buni--all either Christians, Jews, or Muslim.

Today I have yet to see a mainline persecution or burning of neopagans, wiccans, and occultists by American Baptist Churches, the Church of God in Christ, The Roman Catholic Church etc.

I fully appreciate that many people have issues with various religions and institutions, but let us not distort historical reality in order to justify our biases.

Now, let us respect Miss cat's request and follow the forum rules by avoiding further posts on this topic. Instead I welcome you, as well as anyone else who has contentions with my points or seeks clarity, to PM me. Since my advanced degrees are in religious history and I just finished teaching a course on the subject, I am only too happy to illuminate and educate.

[catherineyronwode]

OMG, ConjureMan Ali! A post featuring the Donatists! You just made my day!

(Well, actually Miss Bri started off making my day with the announcement of Jasper's birth, but you have added materially to my sense of delight, this first day of March, 2011.)

The Donatists. My my my. Whatever will be next? The Novatianists? The Circumcellions? The blooming Anabaptists? The mind reels!

[Joseph Magnuson]

This thread just became my official Tuesday afternoon historical lesson/novella! Thank you all for the rousing (if not slightly off-topic...slightly) conversation. Level headed, intelligent, and well researched discussion makes my day brighter!

-Joseph M.

[ConjureMan]

My pleasure Miss cat! It gives me no end of pleasure to see your scholarly mind tickled <3

[ShadowInPurple]

Miss cat wrote:

"Please understand that this forum is not about "the occult" and it is not about religions. "

then ConjureManAli said...

"you need to get right with Jesus and the Bible."

What does "get right" mean? Is that "not about religions"?

Mss cat wrote:

"This type of argumentation [...] if it is long continued, [...] will only drag the discussion off-topic, and that will lead to deletion of posts, warnings, and even bannings if persisted in. "

Are debates therefore argumentative?

Go ahead and ban everyone who debates and be done with it, myself included.

[ConjureMan]

ShadowInPurple,

Try to understand that this is a *product* forum. You are welcome to debate in PM, or on forums about religion, general occultism etc. We have tried addressing the points, but unfortunately you do not seem to understand what we are getting at. Miss cat has already let this topic go as a matter of leniency, but before it goes too far she requested that it be stopped.

Allow me to simplify:

1. This is a product forum about spiritual products made in the tradition of conjure

2. Traditional conjure is intricately tied to Southern Christian folk practices. To work with this system you'd need to accept this--hence getting right with Jesus and the Bible. This isn't a religious matter. You are welcome to believe what you want. But to work within the tradition you have to make peace with these two integral elements of the tradition.

3. Generalizations about religions, especially those that can be preceived as slanderous are not accepted here. This is true of all religions. This line of debate has already begun some generalization and may spiral out of control.

This is a Lucky Mojo forum made free for anyone interested in learning about how to use these products. Anyone interested in debate, theory, or other matters are welcome to use the PM system or take this to another forum. You may not like the policies, but this is Lucky Mojo's forum. Frankly, it doesn't matter whether you disagree, that isn't the issue. The issue is that this is Lucky Mojo's forum and discussions about religion, especially if they make generalizations or implications that can be seen as slanderous are not allowed.

[catherineyronwode]

ShadowInPurple,

Our mission here is to be of service and assistance to those who seek our help, not to engage in contention. So, yes, it is my practice to ban people who repeatedly attempt to misuse this forum as a venue for argument or debate. Three warnings will be issued, with explanations, before i issue a ban.

[SweetLady]

Hello, I am very new to the forums. This is my very first post. I am mostly unfamiliar with hoodoo. I have practiced other forms of spirituality or magic for many years. I became interested in hoodoo because of a movie I saw...It's called The Skeleton Key.

I then read a book called Not in Kansas anymore. It mentioned the Lucky Mojo Curio Company and Miss Yronwode. I visited the site well over a year ago, but was scared off my the "threats" that hoodoo seems to carry.

For example, I just read a forum post about a "hit" on a child. The same post also mentioned "spiritual battles" that the individual had been in for a very long time. This all sounds scary and makes me wonder if it is dangerous to get into hoodoo.

1) Why would a person want to harm an innocent child?

2) What is meant by spiritual battles?

3) Why would someone practice hoodoo if it is known that others will try to hurt you or those you love?

4) If I practice hoodoo, could I be placing my beloved child in danger?

[ConjureMan]

Hello SweetLady,

I am not sure what you mean by "threats" that hoodoo seems to carry. Never heard of such a thing and I've been a conjurer for quite some time and a professional rootworker for many years. Here are the answers to your numbered questions.

1. Asking why a person would harm an innocent child is an odd question. People can be mean and viscious. I guess your answer would be for the same reason some people kidnap children, rape children, or kill children--there is something wrong with that person (sociopath etc).

2. Some people use the term spiritual battles or spiritual warfare to refer to a conflict between two individuals in a non-physical manner. This is not a common occurrance, but it exists within all spiritual paths, be you witch, conjure doctor, Christian, Muslim etc. It involves anything from someone wishing you ill, to having someone pray against you, to having someone actively use magick against you. Why it happens? Well why do nations go to war? For a variety of reasons. Such conflicts are not inherent to any one tradition, but to people themselves.

3. I am not sure what on earth you mean. Why would practing hoodoo equate to people trying to hurt you? People go their entire lives without encountering "attacks" from someone else following a magical tradition. Practicing hoodoo doesn't predispose someone to harm any more than any other form of spiritual knowledge. Just like studying martial arts wouldn't suddenly make you predisposed to getting into fights or having people randomly mug you. Do some people get attacked magically? Sure, but people get mugged and assaulted in daily life too, by some very non-magical individuals. There isn't some correlation between hoodoo and violence.

4. Why would you? Refer to my previous responses.

SweetLady, you seem a very gentle, if somewhat timid individual. I am not sure how you came to associate hoodoo with suddenly being exposed to a criminal underground, but you are entirely mistaken. These assumptions indicate a naivete about the nature of people and spiritual traditions in general. If you are that scared of the connotations of practicing magic or conjure then maybe you'd be better off just observing. No harm in that

Good luck!

[Mama Micki]

Reading this forum may sometimes give the impression that hoodoo is just about revenge, crossing, etc., but that is far from true. There are a lot of spells for prosperity, luck, protection, cleansing, and health also. I would suggest those would be more to your liking, SweetLady.

[[Ophelia]]

As you may guess from my screenname, I am an amateur Egyptologist. The Egyptian word for magic or magician is "heka," which may be related to the word "hex" and the Greek goddess Hecate. Adding a "t" to Egyptian words makes them feminine, so I guess I could call myself a "hekat." One could also use the word "magi" or "wise (wo)man."

I have been reading a lot lately about the parallels between Egyptian religious literature and hymns and the stories and Psalms in the Bible. I am quickly reaching the conclusion that they are similiar enough that I can combine the ancient Egyptian faith and Christianity into a syncretic path which would fit in nicely with Hoodoo, which includes African and Christian elements.

Now I can say that I believe in Jesus Christ (which means Anointed Savior), Light of the World, the Bread of Life, the Good Shepherd because these are also titles of the Egyptian God Heru (Horus).

This is EXACTLY how I practice and make sense of the combination!!!
Khemetic religion and Hoodoo go VERY well together I feel also.
Nice to know someone else shares my beliefs!

[demiann84]

The genereal rule of thumb when practicing is what ever you send out comesw back times three-how does that work if you are working to make wht someone did wrong to you right? For instance, i want to do a break up spell for my ex and his wife (whom he married after he and i had a baby together and he cheated on me with her the whole time we were together. They werent married when we started dating) Would i be bargaining for trouble doing this spell?

[rhiannonwales]

Don't quote me on this, but I do not believe that hoodoo in general subscribes to the threefold law. That is more of a neo pagan thing. Hoodoo is more of a taking responsibility for what comes from the work you do - good or bad.

If I am wrong, someone PLEASE feel free to correct me... I am but a babe in the woods when it comes to hoodoo, although its fascinated me for years.

[ConjureMan]

There is no such rule of thumb in hoodoo. Work is justified or it isn't but no karmic concept.

[Devi Spring]

Also, the Three-fold Law of Wicca and some NeoPagan paths that embraced it is also separate in its theory than Eastern Karma. They are not interchangeable concepts. And both are not part of hoodoo.

As ConjureMan Ali says, there is the notion of works needing to be justified (as in "justified in the eyes of God"), but that is very contextually based and between the practitioner and God.

[luckyboi317]

Does Hoodoo have initiations like voodoo or witchcraft? And how would one go about being initiated into hoodoo?

[starsinthesky7]

No. Voodoo is a religion,and witchcraft is a different form of magic. Hoodoo is something that people have learned from the ancestors, other practitioners, and/or through formal courses such as the lucky mojo correspondence course. I think hoodoo is an on going learning process that even the most experienced should be constantly refining and learning new things. But most people have learned through the passing down of information from others, and there isn't anything formal that makes you suddenly able to practice hoodoo.


You can read more about it here. www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

[catherineyronwode]

Witchcraft is a more or less generic term for various forms of folk magic; in some cultures there may be iniitiations, in others, there are not.

In Anglophone nations, Witchcraft is also used as a term to identify certain Pagan and Neo-Pagan religions, such as Wicca, British Traditional Witchcraft, and Ecclectic Witchcraft. These are religions, and they do include initiations.

Hoodoo is a form of African American and Southern folk magic that does not require initiations.

A while back a rather phony book came out that claimed that hoodoo required initiations, but it was more or less the author's fantasy. The author was a member of an initiatic Witchcraft tradition and basically imposed his religious initiation ideas on conjure in a most ridiculous manner.

This youtube video may give you a more authentic look at the religious implications of hoodoo having been founded and grounded in Protestant Christianity:

Mary Don't You Weep - Gospel Legends Volume 2 soloist Inez Andrews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukYKKIvwjr0
recorded live at Eyevox Studios, Ridgeland, Mississippi, August 24- 25 2004.

[missps2010]

Ever since I was little, I was taught that good things happen to good people. They are tested often but the end results always favor them. With an exception of my teenage years of my life, I have made it a point to go the extra mile to be there for others, help others, live for others. And God knows this has been unconditional. I have no interest or value in materialistic things apart from whats required to survive.

I love, pray and believe in Lord Shiva. I talk to him every night before I go to sleep. I fast for him.

Although I'm a beginner, I also believe in hoodoo and its powers.

You guys on the forum, the readers and Ms. Cat and her team do a great job in helping others- God bless you all

But can these tests go for ever? I feel like I'm being tested for years now and unfortunately being forced to think what did i do to deserve it. Since 2009, my life couldnt get worst. No job, no money, increasing debts, bf broke off the marriage- doesnt want to talk, tried moving on but the new guy rejected me as well and to top it all, I lost my car in an auto accident. I am siting in a dark room during the day typing my heart out wondering why is Lord Shiva angry at me? My eyes are dried out now- no more tears left.

Thanks to your suggestions on this forum and through readings by AIRR readers such as Ms. Cat and Miss Bri who may I add are very patient and lovely poeple, I have been hopeful at times about times to come. With spell work done through her or by myself based on what you all suggest, I look forward to changing times but my luck just wont change. My readings in the last few yrs never depicted anyting super negative so I guess I am just born with it. But these times are harsh and I'm losing faith in myself, my life and my God- its like the candle flame- flickering and unpredictable- almost ready to burn out.

My family and my friends are the only anchor saving my ship from drowning. I keep asking them if I'm doin something wrong, if I dont come across as a nce person, if I can change myself in any way, I even apologized to this one guy who apparently liked me but since I didnt, I may have hurt his feelings hoping that might change things.. What else can I do?? Is there any help for my situation??

Please let me know. I'd SINCERELY appreciate your advices and help
Thank you all for your time.

[Jibrael]

I'm only beginning my formal journey into Hoodoo, so I can't address that, but I do have some experience with Shiva, and that I would like to share.

Shiva is said by some to be the God of destruction, who consumes what is dead at the end of time so that the new world may be born. If things are as bad as you say, then it doesn't mean He's angry with you; in fact, if its anything like how He relates to me, then its a good thing. What is falling away and dying in your life is the fodder and fertilizer for the resurrection to come. Its like the Death Card in the Tarot; its not the end of the Major Arcana, but a defining moment where the old passes away and the new appears.

Why is Shiva so often depicted setting in a cremation ground, or on a remote mountain? A Hindu swami once told me that the blue of Shiva's skin is from the ashes of all the dead bodies He's watched be cremated, and it is the dust of all the worlds He's watched die. But He is still, and listening. Death is part of life, and all things end. But part of that ending is the new beginning. Does that make sense? Your God is one of most powerful catalysts for change that we humans have ever encountered! Shiva, in my experience, is not a rosy and bump-free-ride kinda God. No... He takes you through the conflagaration and teaches you how to dance in the midst of it.

Don't give up, darling. Your God has not abandoned you, nor is He upset with you. The place you are in is the place that is His specialty.

[Mama Micki]

I do not know your religious or cultural background, but are you sure that Shiva is the God for you? He is an ascetic God, going through many trials to achieve enlightenment. As Jibrael stated, he is also the God of death and destruction.

Only you can decide your spiritual path; you are free to choose.

[missps2010]

beautiful words hun!!! thanks for the words of encoragement but it does amaze me that this has been goin on for a while now. my heart aches in ways hard to decribe but hey all i can really do is be hopeful right and pass the tests and come out with flying colors..
heres to the new beginning awaiting me I hope......

[missps2010]

thanks Mama Micki. youre right.

I'm a HIndu and Lord Shiva is one of our Gods. I truely believe in him, I just wish he'd be less strict on me now after all this time

[Devi Spring]

There are also many manifestations of Shiva. If you feel you are tapping into the harsher aspects of him, then you could always try calling on one of his peaceful names instead and see how that changes the energy in your life. Shiva Shambo and Shiva Shankara are two such examples.

[ConjureMan]

Mama Micki is definitely on something. If you follow the path of Shiva expect a path of asceticism in some way shape or form. Such is his path through enlightenment, where the ego is shattered.

If you are Hindu you may consider a different path to Lord Shiva.

[missps2010]

There are also many manifestations of Shiva. If you feel you are tapping into the harsher aspects of him, then you could always try calling on one of his peaceful names instead and see how that changes the energy in your life. Shiva Shambo and Shiva Shankara are two such examples.

your are right Devi! I call him Prabhu (Lord) well I guess I will let him test me as much as he wants. Eventually he will have to be pleased with me. I just hope I have the strenght to keep taking it.

[HeactesHeart]

Hello.

I recently met a very spiritual man who I seem a very deep connection with. We have spent many hours talk and he shared some of his magical knowledge with me. I feel very attracted to him. Last night we spent hours together, standing inches apart, in deep conversation . He keep asking what is that was blocking me from real happiness. I began to cry and so did he. He gently cradled my face in his hands, then wiped my tears with his fingers and swallowed then all. He smiled and said "now they are mine".

Afterward he told that we had many past lives together. I asked him what was the nature of the relationship and he told me we were lovers. Ah.

I feel very safe with him.

Yet, I wonder if he was hoodooing my tears.


Peace,

Coco

[catherineyronwode]

Ingestion of a lover's tears is not a hoodoo tradition, but it is a very common seduction / binding method used in the sex magic, sacred sex, sex yoga, and pick-up artist communities.

For more on sex magic and sacred sex, see

http://luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html

and

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The reference to "past lives" is pretty far off the map for hoodoo, since hoodoo is basically the folk magic of Protestant Christian African Americans, most of whom believe in an after-death experience of Heaven, which features events such as meeting Jesus, seeing (or being) an Angel, etc. -- not rebirth into another body on Earth.

The fact that he mentioned "past lives" might indicate that he has absorbed some Asian religious ideas, either directly, from a traditional Asian religion such as Hinduism or Buddhism, or indirectly, via Theosophy, New Age beliefs, or Neuro-Linguistic Programing techniques. Hard to tell.

I'm merging this into the "Religion" thread because although it may be of interest to many, it is off-topic for a discussion of conjure and the employment of Lucky Mojo Spiritual Supplies.

[Conjure_Mama]

Does anyone here work with deificr pantheons?

I have worked with the Greek pantheon for about 7 years now. I have seen where some of the gods and goddess that I am comfortable working with could very easily fit into hoodoo workings.

This is definately turning out to be a year that I am forced to "face" many of my fears and issues. My husband beleives that my ever deeper study of hoodoo and daily exposure to working with saints is part of this "life lesson" I am working through this year.

[catherineyronwode]

Most people here are practitioners of African American conjure, and most are Protestants.

We welcome people from all religions. You will find many ecelectics, as well as an assortment of dedicants to Hindu deities, Buddhist incarnations, kimpungulu, orishas, lwa, saints, angels, and ancestral spirits,

This post goes in the big "Religion -- It's YOUR Problem, Not Ours" thread.

Any time you want to discuss African American conjure, feel free to check out the threads on our topic here.

You might wnt to watch this youtube video, as it may give you some history of how religion intertwines with African American culture:

Preview History of First African Baptist Church Savannah GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJtTGJl8VB4
Preview of upcoming documentary of the history of First African Baptist Church in Savannah Georgia

Good luck.

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For more information, see:
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[ConjureMan]

Hoodoo is very firmly intertwined with African American Protestant Christian beliefs. You don't have to be a Christian to practice, but its best to get comfortable with Christianity before you dive in. If you can't, this path may not be for you.

[maduro01]

Does Chango Macho despise gay, bi-sexual or transgender people?

[JCPA72]

Maduro

No, for some unknown reason - that idea has taken hold. In the Yorba tradition, Chango is considered to be a very sexual, manly warrior God - hence the Macho - he likes to drink, rum.. smoke cigars and all that good stuff. I actually know two men, who are as Macho as can be - who are son's of Chango and they are gay..

[maduro01]

Maduro

No, for some unknown reason - that idea has taken hold. In the Yorba tradition, Chango is considered to be a very sexual, manly warrior God - hence the Macho - he likes to drink, rum.. smoke cigars and all that good stuff. I actually know two men, who are as Macho as can be - who are son's of Chango and they are gay..

THANK YOU JCPA!!!!

I could never get a straight answer on my question until now. I'm so glad to hear this, because I will be petitioning him on something that I need help with.

Best